View Poll Results: Predict the score of the match

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  • 6-0 Kramnik

    0 0%
  • 5.5-0.5 Kramnik

    0 0%
  • 5-1 Kramnik

    1 4.17%
  • 4.5-1.5 Kramnik

    1 4.17%
  • 4-2 Kramnik

    2 8.33%
  • 3.5-2.5 Kramnik

    2 8.33%
  • 3-3 draw

    4 16.67%
  • 3.5-2.5Fritz

    5 20.83%
  • 4-2 Fritz

    6 25.00%
  • 4.5-1.5 Fritz

    2 8.33%
  • 5-1 Fritz

    0 0%
  • 5.5-0.5 Fritz

    0 0%
  • 6-0 Fritz

    1 4.17%
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  1. #1
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Kramnik - Deep Fritz

    From TWIC:

    Vladimir Kramnik vs. Deep Fritz Match Announced

    Vladimir Kramnik will play the ChessBase computer program Deep Fritz in a 6 game match 25th November - 5th December 2006 in the German’s Art and Exhibition Hall in Bonne. Kramnik stands to win a prize of $1 Million US for a win in the match doubling his starting fee.

    Asked how he estimates his chances, Kramnik reacted cautiously: "Fritz examines millions of moves per second. It is extraordinarily difficult to play against such a calculating monster. Right from the start you are walking on a very narrow ridge, and you know that any inattentiveness will be your downfall. It is a scientific experiment and I will have to fight very hard for my chance."

    The WCC is being organized by Universal Event Promotion (UEP), in cooperation with the Art and Exhibition Hall.

    Schedule: Game 1: Saturday 25.11.2006 16h Game 2: Monday 27.11.2006 16h Game 3: Wednesday 29.11.2006 16h Game 4: Friday 01.12.2006 16h Game 5: Sunday 03.12.2006 16h Game 6: Tuesday 05.12.2006 16h
    I am surprised that this match has been arranged when there is a significant risk that Kramnik will no longer be any kind of world champion by then.

    There have been a lot of matches vs Fritz now, how about a world champion strength player vs Shredder, Rybka or Hydra?

  2. #2
    Account Permanently Banned Arrogant-One's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    From TWIC:



    I am surprised that this match has been arranged when there is a significant risk that Kramnik will no longer be any kind of world champion by then.

    There have been a lot of matches vs Fritz now, how about a world champion strength player vs Shredder, Rybka or Hydra?
    I would like to see a super GM tournament where several GM's compete in a round robin which includes Fritz.

    But I agree with you as well in confirming that there is a remote chance that Topolov will defeat Kramnik, and thus he will no longer be world champion.

  3. #3
    CC FIDE Master Dozy's Avatar
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    Computers have improved a bit over the past three decades.

    I remember somebody (I think it was Kevin Jones who was directing the tournament) entered one of the early computers in the tourney as a joke.

    Everybody except one person whupped it well and truly but one guy, Morris Needleman if I recall, blundered and looked like losing so he pulled off a swindle that the poor old computer simply couldn't handle.

    Final result: Humans 5 Computer 0.
    Visit my chess blog: http://blog.chess.com/Dozy

  4. #4
    CC Grandmaster Garvinator's Avatar
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    Anyone for 6 zip Kramnik

  5. #5
    CC Candidate Master
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    I think Fritz will win but it will be close-ish (4-2). Great to see Kramnik's back in form. The Topalov match should be a ripper
    cheers - paulb

  6. #6
    CC Grandmaster Garvinator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    From TWIC:



    I am surprised that this match has been arranged when there is a significant risk that Kramnik will no longer be any kind of world champion by then.

    There have been a lot of matches vs Fritz now, how about a world champion strength player vs Shredder, Rybka or Hydra?
    Adams played Hydra about a year ago and got drubbed 5.5-0.5.

    There were quite a few comments though from sources saying that while Hydra was tuned specifically to Adams playing style, opening etc, Adams wasnt allowed to see anything about Hydra. So he couldnt prepare specifically for the program.

    Not sure if this is true, but it does make you think.

  7. #7
    CC Grandmaster
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    It's a tough call to know exactly what sort of conditions make for a fair match between humans and computers.

    I don't think it's fair if the computer has a team of GMs programming a precise opening repertoire to combat a particular player. I don't think it is fair that a computer can be optimised by making use of every single game the human has played. On the other hand, I don't think it's fair if the human has access to the engine (including opening book) for a length of time in order to look for weaknesses in opening repertoire.

    I reckon just about the only way to get a fair match is if the computer doesn't know who it is going to play. The best way is if the computer plays in a tournament setting (e.g Scheveningen comps vs humans), but with no opening or style changes permitted between matches.

    Topalov, Kramnik, Leko and Aronian vs Hydra, Rybka, Shredder and Junior anyone?

  8. #8
    CC Grandmaster
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    Quote Originally Posted by pax
    Topalov, Kramnik, Leko and Aronian vs Hydra, Rybka, Shredder and Junior anyone?
    Anand?

  9. #9
    CC Grandmaster
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    Quote Originally Posted by Igor_Goldenberg
    Anand?
    Yeah, him too.

    To be honest, he's been under the radar a bit since his terrible Olympiad.

  10. #10
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    I feel it is becoming increasingly difficult for humans to hold the ground against the sylicon monsters. My money is on Fritz

  11. #11
    CC Grandmaster Garvinator's Avatar
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  12. #12
    CC Grandmaster Garvinator's Avatar
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    Regulations

    Interesting, been looking through the regs for this match, some are quite interesting and unusual:

    Rules:

    DATES
    Six games will be played on the days 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11 where day 1 is 25 day of November 2006. The games commence at 3.00 pm and end at 9.00 pm at which time Mr Kramnik will have the right either to continue with the game or to adjourn it to the next day.

    TIME CONTROL
    In each game the Players shall each have to make 40 moves in two hours followed by 16 moves per hour thereafter provided that in the event that a game has not been completed within six hours it may be adjourned to the following day at Mr Kramniks discretion when play will continue at the rate of 16 moves per hour for a further six hours.

    Mr. Kramnik shall have the right to adjourn any game after 56 moves even if six hours of play have not been completed. Should this right be exercised, play shall continue on the following rest day at the rate of 16 moves per hour.

    THE WINNER
    The winner of the match will be the first Player to score more than 3 points. It is intended to award the winner the World Chess Challenge Trophy.

    In the event that the match is decided before the six games set out in paragraph “Dates” have been played, Mr Kramnik will continue to play until the conclusion of the sixth game or offer his services in any way agreeable to both Parties.
    ARBITER AND MATCH DIRECTOR
    The match will be ruled and officiated by one arbiter. His decision regarding any interpretation of any of the rules of chess pertaining to this match shall be final and binding. The arbiter shall be selected by UEP and UEP shall inform Mr. Kramnik and Chessbase (CB) about the name of the arbiter as soon as possible but in no event later than 1 October 2006. UEP informs about its intention to contract Mr. Albert Vasse (Netherlands) being the arbiter of the WCC.

    UEP shall have the right to announce a WCC Match Director who will be responsible for all necessary communication and administration during the match (with the Players, the Arbiter, the sponsors, the press, the local organisation at venue and other parties involved). For the avoidance of doubt: The Match Director has no influence or responsibility on the Arbiter’s decisions and shall have no influence regarding any interpretation of any rules of chess and any rules of the WCC which is solely a responsibility of the Arbiter.

    THE COMPUTER OPERATOR
    The CB Team will designate an Operator and up to two Reserve Operators. The Operator is the only person who may interact with Deep Fritz during the game. The Operator may not interact with Deep Fritz while Mr. Kramnik’s clock is running. The Operator may adjust the clock times used by Deep Fritz only within 15 seconds of Deep Fritz’s clock being activated.

    During the game, the Operator may be replaced by a Reserve Operator should the Operator be unable to perform for any extended period of time. Any replacement of Operator must be authorized by one of the Arbiters.

    The Operator will take all reasonable measures to insure that their activities do not distract Mr. Kramnik.

    OPENING BOOKS
    The computer will consult an opening book during the game. During the match, the opening book may not be modified, except that up to 10 ply of additional moves may be added in the opening variation of the game which has most recently been played (not counting adjournment sessions) and the weightings of specific moves may be modified so that the different variations, already present in the opening book, will be preferred by the program. All opening book modifications will be entered by the Arbiters before the game according to the material confidentially provided to them by the Deep Fritz Team. A member of the Deep Fritz Team will be present and if necessary guide the Arbiter through the necessary steps of operation.

    At the conclusion of each game the Arbiter will attempt to replicate the opening of the game on a computer which has the opening book and program as delivered to the Kramnik Team and the Arbiter. If they find any discrepancies, the Deep Fritz Team is required to explain these to the satisfaction of the arbiter.

    If a violation of this rule is determined by the Arbiter, the penalty may include loss of the game.

    As long as Deep Fritz is “in book”, that is playing moves from memory and not calculating variations, Mr. Kramnik sees the display of the Deep Fritz opening book. For the current board position he sees all moves, including all statistics (number of games, ELO performance, score) from grandmaster games and the move weighting of Deep Fritz. To this purpose, Mr. Kramnik uses his own computer screen showing the screen of the Deep Fritz machine with book display activated.

    As soon as Deep Fritz starts calculating variations during the game the operator informs the arbiter. The arbiter confirms this on the screen of the playing machine and then shuts down the second screen.

    ENDGAME TABLEBASES
    The use of a database of endgame positions (“Tablebase”) is permitted only if the tablebase contains positions with a total five total pieces or less, including kings.

    When Deep Fritz identifies the board position in a tablebase, it must inform the Arbiter, who will then stop the clocks.

    In the presence of the Arbiter, the Operator will inform Mr. Kramnik that the position has been located in the tablebase.

    If the position is evaluated by the tablebase as winning for the side played by Deep Fritz, the Operator will inform Mr. Kramnik of that fact in the presence of the Arbiter. The game will continue, unless Mr. Kramnik chooses to resign.

    If the position is evaluated by the tablebase as winning for the side played by Mr. Kramnik, the Operator will inform Mr. Kramnik of that fact in the presence of the Arbiter. The game will continue unless the Deep Fritz Operator chooses to resign.

    If the position is evaluated by the tablebase as a draw, the Operator will inform Mr. Kramnik of that fact in the presence of the Arbiter. This will constitute an offer of a draw. The game will continue, unless the offer is accepted prior to the completion of Mr. Kramnik’s next move.

    It is recognized that the program will access tablebases in its calculations. The above rules apply only when the position on the board is present in the tablebase.

    DRAW OFFERS
    Mr. Kramnik may offer a draw at any time, regardless of whose turn it is. The Operator is authorized to accept or decline the draw on behalf of Deep Fritz.

    The Operator may offer a draw on behalf of Deep Fritz, however a draw may not be offered unless a previous offer by Mr. Kramnik has been declined.

    If Mr. Kramnik feels that the position is clearly drawn, he may notify the Arbiter and the Operator that he is making a claim of “technical draw”. The Arbiter will stop the clock. Mr. Kramnik will then explain his reasoning, and the Operator is obliged to accept the draw unless Deep Fritz can demonstrate that in the previous ten moves progress has been made.

    The Arbiter will determine the validity of the claim, and his decision shall be final and binding. Should the uphold the claim, the game will be declared drawn. If he rejects the claim, then the game continues.

    During the deliberations regarding a technical draw, the clocks will remain stopped. In the event the Arbiters reject the claim, the penalty will be deduction of the lesser of 5 minutes, or 10% percent of Mr. Kramnik’s remaining time. In the event a second claim of a technical draw is rejected in the same game, a 25% penalty will be assessed.

    SOFTWARE OR HARDWARE FAILURE
    Software or hardware failure is defined as the inability of the program to deliver a legal chess move to the operator.

    In the event of an obvious software or hardware failure, an arbiter will stop the clock and give the Deep Fritz Team 5 minutes to decide whether to resume with the same machine or replace it.

    After 5 minutes have elapsed, an arbiter will reactivate the clock.

    Before making a move, the Deep Fritz Team will indicate to an arbiter that they are ready to resume play. The arbiter will immediately inform Mr. Kramnik.

    After the Deep Fritz team informs an arbiter, any move made by the machine must be accepted as part of the game.

    Should the Deep Fritz Team decide that hardware repairs cannot be made, they may substitute a machine which is either configured exactly the same as the designated playing hardware, or may switch to a dual-processor or single processor machine. The Arbiter must approve any hardware modification or substitution, and may carry out tests to determine whether the provisions of this article are being met.

    POST-GAME CONFIRMATIONS
    After the conclusion of each game, the Deep Fritz Team shall provide a printout of the computer analysis of the game to the Arbiters and the Kramnik Team. This printout includes evaluation, search depth, expected move and thinking time.

    After each game, the Arbiters will be provided with an opportunity to compare the opening book used in the game with the opening book used in previous games.

    DISCLOSURE OF MATCH ENGINE
    By October 1, 2006, Mr. Kramnik and the arbiter will receive the final match version of Deep Fritz. After this date only bug fixes are done on the engine, for example obvious crashes or obvious positional errors. No positional knowledge will be added. Should the engine be modified in any way after 1 October 2006 Chessbase will notify Mr. Kramnik’s team and the Arbiter in writing about this specific change and demonstrate its effect on a test position. In any case Chessbase guarantees that any change after October 1, 2006, will not influence general playing style and tactical strength and confirms that the engine code remains practically unchanged after October 1, 2006.

    From 1 October 2006 on, the Deep Fritz team will be ready on the request of the Kramnik team to install the final match version on Mr Kramnik’s trainings machine. The Deep Fritz team shall inform Mr. Kramnik and the organizer (UEP) by no later than 1 October 2006 about the specifications of the hardware which will be used during the WCC. In co-operation with a possible hardware sponsor and CB the organizer (UEP) will make their best endeavours to provide Mr. Kramnik a trainings machine being similar with the machine during the WCC.

    At any stage in the match, the Kramnik team may copy the exact playing engine directly from the tournament machine under supervision of the arbiter. The Deep Fritz Team is not required to disclose the exact hash table size for the match. It is understood that hash table size does not influence playing style but rather introduces a small element of non-determinism into the move selection process. The Deep Fritz Team has to notify the Arbiter Committee of the Hash table size so that they can reproduce the programs calculations.

  13. #13
    CC Grandmaster Garvinator's Avatar
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    I wonder if anyone wants to change their vote after reading the regs supplied above. The adjournments clause certainly has to even up the odds quite a bit.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by ggrayggray
    I wonder if anyone wants to change their vote after reading the regs supplied above. The adjournments clause certainly has to even up the odds quite a bit.
    In Kramnik's favour

  15. #15
    CC International Master
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    time control

    In my opinion the proper time control is ten moves in sixty days.

    Tournament should be say 6 humans playing a scheveningen against six computer programs.

    The longer the time control the more computer programs will be at a disadvantage

    1) in quiescent positions

    2) defending against sound gambits.

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