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  1. #1
    CC FIDE Master Phil Bourke's Avatar
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    Help needed, please :)

    I have been given the following position as a win for White!
    W Kf4 pp f5,g5,h4
    B Kd5 pp f6,g7,h7
    White to move.
    This one is driving me nuts, I can't find anymore than a draw.
    TIA.
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  2. #2
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Looks like a draw to me too.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  3. #3
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    Are you sure the white pawn is on h4, not h5?

    Even draw is not strighforward

  4. #4
    CC Grandmaster Denis_Jessop's Avatar
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    The position quoted appears in Muller and Lamprecht's Fundamental Chess Endings, p.38, diag 2.34, as from the game Chigorin - Tarrasch, Ostend, 1905.

    They give it as a draw. The bare moves (less analysis) given are:

    1. Kg4 Ke4; 2. g6 h6; 3. Kh5 Kxf5 stalemate.

    Apparently the actual game went:

    1. gxf6 gxf6; 2. Kg4 Ke5; Kh3 Kf4 0-1.

    M and L also give 1. g6; h5 and gxf6 (in another variation) as leading to wins for B.

    I'll take their word for it.

    DJ

    PS Checking further I find that M and L also have the position in their Secrets of Pawn Endings p82, diag 6.04 where they give a little more explanation but the same moves. Basically, they say that the position usually wins for B but the proximity to the edge of the board allows W to force stalemate.

    D
    Last edited by Denis_Jessop; 27-05-2006 at 08:40 PM.
    ...I don't want to go among mad people Alice remarked, "Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: we're all mad here. I am mad. You're mad." "How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice. "You must be," said the Cat ,"or you wouldn't have come here."

  5. #5
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    I didn't consider B trying to win as I was looking for a win for W. But B's K position looks much better. I did consider putting W's K on d5 and B's K on f7. But I think that is still drawn.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  6. #6
    CC FIDE Master Phil Bourke's Avatar
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    Thanks for all the help fellows. I didn't realise what book it came from, one of the kids gave it to me last week at the club and said that he had been told that White wins! It is soon obvious that W doesn't win, and as pointed out, it is one of those nasty ones. If W tries for the win, he loses W must play carefully to ensure the draw. Anyhow, your help will allow me to maintain the authoritive teacher role by declaring it a draw with best play by W
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  7. #7
    CC Grandmaster Denis_Jessop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Bourke
    Thanks for all the help fellows. I didn't realise what book it came from, one of the kids gave it to me last week at the club and said that he had been told that White wins! It is soon obvious that W doesn't win, and as pointed out, it is one of those nasty ones. If W tries for the win, he loses W must play carefully to ensure the draw. Anyhow, your help will allow me to maintain the authoritive teacher role by declaring it a draw with best play by W
    As I read Muller and Lamprecht, they are saying that the stalemate line they give is the only way W can draw. All other lines win for B.

    DJ
    ...I don't want to go among mad people Alice remarked, "Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: we're all mad here. I am mad. You're mad." "How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice. "You must be," said the Cat ,"or you wouldn't have come here."

  8. #8
    CC Rookie Thunderstone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Denis_Jessop
    As I read Muller and Lamprecht, they are saying that the stalemate line they give is the only way W can draw. All other lines win for B.

    DJ
    Don't 1.Kf3 and 1.Kg3 also draw?

    It's the same idea Kg4, g6 and then stalemate but it does appear there are 3 solutions?

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderstone
    Don't 1.Kf3 and 1.Kg3 also draw?

    It's the same idea Kg4, g6 and then stalemate but it does appear there are 3 solutions?
    No. 1.Kg3 h5! - no stalemate.
    1.g6 also loses to 1...h5. That's why 1.Kg4 is the only move

  10. #10
    CC Rookie Thunderstone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Igor_Goldenberg
    No. 1.Kg3 h5! - no stalemate.
    1.g6 also loses to 1...h5. That's why 1.Kg4 is the only move
    OK, no stalemate but after...

    1.Kg3 h5
    2.gxh6 gxh6
    3.Kg4 is still a draw as far as I can see?

  11. #11
    CC Grandmaster
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderstone
    OK, no stalemate but after...

    1.Kg3 h5
    2.gxh6 gxh6
    3.Kg4 is still a draw as far as I can see?
    Yes, you are right

  12. #12
    CC Candidate Master Sutek's Avatar
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    This position is in Chessbase's Study Database 2000.

    There is no mention of a game reference and just says "Maroczy 1905".
    Also there is no mention of 1.Kg3!? or 1.Kf3!?

    Only analysis given is..

    (Notes by Maroczy)

    1. Kg4! Ke5 2. g6! h6 (2... hxg6 3. fxg6) 3. Kh5! Kxf5 (3... Ke4 4. Kg4
    h5+ 5. Kxh5 Kf3) 1/2-1/2


    Edit

    Here's the complete score of the game.

    [Event "Ostend"]
    [Site "Ostend"]
    [Date "1905.??.??"]
    [Round "6"]
    [White "Chigorin, Mikhail"]
    [Black "Tarrasch, Siegbert"]
    [Result "0-1"]
    [ECO "C00"]
    [PlyCount "104"]
    [EventDate "1905.??.??"]

    1. e4 e6 2. Qe2 c5 3. f4 Nc6 4. d3 Be7 5. Nf3 d5 6. Nc3 Nf6 7. g3 Nd4 8. Qd1 Qb6 9. Bg2 O-O 10. O-O dxe4 11. Nxd4 cxd4 12. Nxe4 Bd7 13. Nd2 Bc6 14. Nc4 Qa6 15. Bxc6 Qxc6 16. a4 b6 17. Qe2 Rfe8 18. Bd2 a6 19. Rfc1 b5 20. Ne5 Qd5 21. c4 dxc3 22. bxc3 Red8 23. axb5 axb5 24. Rxa8 Rxa8 25. c4 bxc4 26. dxc4 Bc5+ 27. Be3 Qe4 28. Re1 Ra1 29. Kf2 Qxe3+ 30. Qxe3 Rxe1 31. Qxc5 Ne4+ 32. Kxe1 Nxc5 33. Ke2 f6 34. Nc6 Kf8 35. Ke3 Ke8 36. Na5 Kd7 37. Kd4 Kd6 38. Kc3 e5 39. Nb3 Nxb3 40. Kxb3 Kc5 41. Kc3 e4 42. f5 e3 43. Kd3 e2 44. Kxe2 Kxc4 45. Ke3 Kd5 46. Kf4 Kd4 47. g4 Kd5 48. h4 Kd4 49. g5 Kd5 50. gxf6 gxf6 51. Kg4 Ke4 52. Kh3 Kf4 0-1
    Last edited by Sutek; 31-05-2006 at 09:54 AM.

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