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  1. #1
    CC Grandmaster Garvinator's Avatar
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    Flag claim during followed by time section

    This occurred during one of the rapid games I was in charge of last night.

    Time control was 15 minutes per player followed by 5 seconds per move. Option 14. So game is played under rapid rules.

    Player A has used up his 15 minutes and the dgt has changed over to showing the minus sign and is counting down 5,4,3.

    Player B, who has about 3 minutes remaining, claims flagfall, saying that Player A has run out of time as the dgt clock is showing the minus sign.

    What is the correct decision?

    My decision was to dismiss Player B's claim as Player A has not run out of time and I added two minutes to Player A's clock.

    Player B then 'demanded' that I show exactly in the fide laws of chess where the penalty and rule is.

    At the end of the tournament, the best I could find is-

    From the 2005 fide laws of chess appendices:

    B8.
    To claim a win on time, the claimant must stop both clocks and notify the arbiter. For the claim to be successful the claimant`s flag must remain up and his opponent`s flag down after the clocks have been stopped.


    Is there something better in the laws of chess and what penalty would you have applied (if any), if you have ruled that the claim was incorrect?

  2. #2
    CC Grandmaster Alan Shore's Avatar
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    I wasn't aware false claims warranted an extra two minutes.

    And, I know exactly who players A and B were.
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  3. #3
    CC Grandmaster Garvinator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belthasar
    I wasn't aware false claims warranted an extra two minutes.
    There has to be a time penalty of some sort. Cant get a free false claim . The question is, if the claim is wrong, then whose clock do you adjust, or both maybe and if so, by how much?

  4. #4
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ggrayggray
    There has to be a time penalty of some sort. Cant get a free false claim . The question is, if the claim is wrong, then whose clock do you adjust, or both maybe and if so, by how much?
    I think some time adjustment to the opponent can be justified on the grounds of the disturbance caused by the false claim. You don't necessarily have to call it a penalty as such. I might have added one minute rather than two.

    Some kinds of claims have clear penalties stated but they are usually those where there are much stronger reasons to discourage and punish false claims. A false 50 move claim or triple rep claim creates a lot of work for the arbiters and can give the player undeserved time to consider the position.
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  5. #5
    CC International Master WhiteElephant's Avatar
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    2 minutes seems way too much as it upsets the balance of the game. It is too harsh a penalty for player B and too much of a freebie for player A who has not managed his time effectively. The arbiter is not there to punish those who are not sure of the rules, but to clarify the rules and then let the game proceed with minimum interruption.

    I would say add 10 seconds at most.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteElephant
    The arbiter is not there to punish those who are not sure of the rules, but to clarify the rules and then let the game proceed with minimum interruption.
    Ignorant players (regards the laws of chess) should not impose their view of the rules on others and if they do suffer the consequences if they are wrong.

    I witnessed a player insist on the touch move rule (more than fair) in the team challenge 20min+10sec. It was a knight check but the person didn't realise it was a check and went to move her queen grabbing it briefly, then she saw she was in check and then tried to move the king when her opponent said touch move.

    Why? I don't know but as the queen was the first touched piece and could legally take the knight she ended up doing so!!
    No this is silly, the whole premise is silly and very badly written. I'm the senior officer here and I've not had a funny line yet so I'm stopping it.

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  7. #7
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    Why was the claim false? Didn't A run out of time as claimed?

  8. #8
    CC Grandmaster Garvinator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Igor_Goldenberg
    Why was the claim false? Didn't A run out of time as claimed?
    If you read the original situation, I said:

    Player A has used up his 15 minutes and the dgt has changed over to showing the minus sign and is counting down 5,4,3.
    That is what the dgt clock does under the followed by setting. It will show a minus sign and start counting down the 5 second increment. Both players then start receiving the 5 second increment. It is one of the main defects of the followed by time control. Confusion on the part of the players.

    Player B claimed flagfall with Player A still having two seconds remaining. Therefore Player B's claim is incorrect.

  9. #9
    CC Grandmaster Garvinator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by antichrist
    GG, serves them all right for using ridiculous digital clocks in the first place. None of this plus time and minus time piffel with analogues. Flagfall and that is it mate. The Aussie way.

    You had better give them an extended version of the Rules Sermon before the games begin - KB is the expert on that - but lock the exist doors first.
    If you play guillotine, then its 10.2 claims that happen.

  10. #10
    CC Grandmaster Garvinator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    I think some time adjustment to the opponent can be justified on the grounds of the disturbance caused by the false claim. You don't necessarily have to call it a penalty as such. I might have added one minute rather than two.

    Some kinds of claims have clear penalties stated but they are usually those where there are much stronger reasons to discourage and punish false claims. A false 50 move claim or triple rep claim creates a lot of work for the arbiters and can give the player undeserved time to consider the position.
    My thoughts later were that possibly some time off Player B's clock would have been appropriate, instead of just adding time to Player A.

  11. #11
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ggrayggray
    My thoughts later were that possibly some time off Player B's clock would have been appropriate, instead of just adding time to Player A.
    I think the advantage of time on to player A is that that way you can package it as compensation not as penalty. Also in this case B will not suffer if time is deducted, whereas the disturbance may affect A's concentration (very important when you are very short of time). So I would give A extra time.

    I'm not sure it should be said that A's managed his time ineffectively. If A is in a position he can win with only five seconds per move then that might be part of the plan. Though my limited experience of this is that increment junkies tend to succumb far more often than not.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by ggrayggray
    If you read the original situation, I said:

    That is what the dgt clock does under the followed by setting. It will show a minus sign and start counting down the 5 second increment. Both players then start receiving the 5 second increment. It is one of the main defects of the followed by time control. Confusion on the part of the players.

    Player B claimed flagfall with Player A still having two seconds remaining. Therefore Player B's claim is incorrect.
    I didn't know there is a time control where increment is not added from the first move. My apologies.

    For the note: I prefer increment to the guillotine, even for the blitz (e,g 4/1 instead of 5/0)

  13. #13
    CC Grandmaster Garvinator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Igor_Goldenberg
    I didn't know there is a time control where increment is not added from the first move. My apologies.
    ahh ok, I wasnt aware that you werent aware that increments can be added after the first set of time. Now we both know .

    This discussed option isnt used much because of the confusion it can create with either players' claiming that they didnt receive the increment, or that their opponent is receiving the extra time and they didnt.

    Also, confusion is created with this type of time control when, lets say Player A (general example) uses up his/her initial thinking time and is then allocate the increment. Player B then thinks that their situation is the same and will allow their clock to run down to zero and wait for the increment. Unfortunately for Player B, as soon as one side starts receiving the increment, both sides start receiving it. Therefore, Player B has had both time periods and loses on time if Player B's clock hits zero.

    You can now see why you dont see that type of time control very often, especially with only an additional 5 or 10 seconds.

    Some tournaments use 60 minutes followed by 10 seconds per move, instead of 60 minutes plus 10 seconds from the start. The main reason is time saving and the fact that 60 fb 10 is a pre set time control on the red dgt clocks. It is option 12.


    For the note: I prefer increment to the guillotine, even for the blitz (e,g 4/1 instead of 5/0)
    3/2 is more common than 4/1 for increment blitz and is also a pre set time control on the red dgts. It is option 21.

  14. #14
    CC International Master WhiteElephant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bergil
    Ignorant players (regards the laws of chess) should not impose their view of the rules on others and if they do suffer the consequences if they are wrong.

    I witnessed a player insist on the touch move rule (more than fair) in the team challenge 20min+10sec. It was a knight check but the person didn't realise it was a check and went to move her queen grabbing it briefly, then she saw she was in check and then tried to move the king when her opponent said touch move.

    Why? I don't know but as the queen was the first touched piece and could legally take the knight she ended up doing so!!
    Bergil. man, you have such an aggressive style of posting. Ignorant players are not out to kill you, they are people too!

    I think Garvin's case study is different to your example. The touch move rule is one of the fundamental rules of chess and it should be enforced in the example you give. In Garvin's case, however, he has arbitrarily decided to add 2 minutes. Are you saying 2 minutes is appropriate/too much/not enough?

    PS Just noticed all the new Avatars, Kevin, I prefer this new one to the goose

  15. #15
    Account Permanently Banned Arrogant-One's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belthasar
    I wasn't aware false claims warranted an extra two minutes.

    Bloody Oath!!!!

    I wasn't aware of it either Dion, but the ridiculous decision of adding 2 minutes to my opponents clock cost me the game - so Garvin achieved his goal afterall. In a 15 minute game, adding 2 minutes is beyond excessive. 2 minutes is the norm for a 60 second per side game, not a quick rapid.

    The Arbiter should have known that.

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