take backs (sf 2006 Australian Internet Junior Chess Championships Discussion)

[Libby]

I think we need some clarification of this -

Mouse-slips

It occasionally happens, especially if you are new to playing chess on the Internet, that you accidentally let go of the mouse as you move a piece and it drops on a square you did not intend it to go. If it is obvious that that is what has occurred, you can ask your opponent to takeback the last move eg takeback 1 or perhaps even takeback 2 if your opponent has snaffled a queen or something the instant it plopped on the wrong square. Generally, your opponent should allow the takeback if it is obviously wrong and then you make the correct move. If you or your opponent feel that the takeback should not be allowed, you should check with one of our admins who are online – to do so however, is not so easy since as a default we have created these accounts with quietplay set to 1; this ICC option means that you cannot tell to anyone during a game or receive messages – as soon as the game is finished or adjourned, you will then be able to see messages in Channel 1 and channel 369 etc. To enable you to ask for advice from say the admin ausnetchess while playing the game, type on the main console quietplay 0 – this will turn quietplay off – you can then tell ausnetchess – I think I need help about whatever is the problem.

ie we either accept that they happen , and allow a take-back.

Or everyone gets told "tough bikkies" and live with it.

Because ACT players have "allowed" take backs, and are not being afforded the same courtesy. And it places unfair pressure on any child to make a "judgement call" on whether to allow a "takeback" when they have an obviously winning position as it stands.

[jase]

Because ACT players have "allowed" take backs, and are not being afforded the same courtesy.

Can you cite examples of this? An ACT player last night made a 'mouselip' and requested a takeback. The NSW player was not sure of the procedure (the State reps really need to make sure their squad are familiar with the rules) but the takeback was accepted.

I think the current policy is the right one; a mouselip is comparable to accidentally knocking a piece in the act of moving another during an over-the-board game.

The difficulty is that when the players have quietplay turned on so that they cannot receive tells from others, they also cannot communicate with officials unless they have a good knowledge of the rules. And generally speaking chess players just worry about their games, paying only scant attention to administrative rules, until it affects them.

[dunwannapost]

Because ACT players have "allowed" take backs, and are not being afforded the same courtesy. And it places unfair pressure on any child to make a "judgement call" on whether to allow a "takeback" when they have an obviously winning position as it stands.

Would you like to cite a particular game?

[Libby]

Would you like to cite a particular game?

We had takeback requests in last last two games played by our players - not just the last one. It's not actually about the outcome of the games at all

It's about having a less grey set of procedures available so that everyone knows where they stand and players aren't left wondering if they should allow a "dodgy" take back (Shervin was having a laugh with me over the weekend about the number of requested - & allowed - "takebacks" in one of our younger member's games - from the opponent) or if they should be more hard line and just say no.

And if someone does say no - because they're mean or because they think it's dodgy or because they don't know of the provision then protesting at the time (or raising it as I do now) makes people look like whingers or cheaters or sore losers or whatever.

I guess I'd rather it was less grey and more black&white. Allow them always (but track repeat offenders) or don't allow them at all.

[dunwannapost]

Because ACT players have "allowed" take backs, and are not being afforded the same courtesy.

In which games did the opponent refuse to allow the takeback?

[Rincewind]

Personally I think if there is going to be some subjectivity in it then the rule should be "no take backs". If necessary people should use software which helps prevent mouse-slips (double click rather than drag and drop or possibly a confirmation message).

I'm not saying there has been any impropriety in the current tournament but allowing take backs gives an opportunity for the unscupulous player to increase their odds by asking for take-backs but never granting them to his opponents. "No take backs" is fair for all and easy to interpret uniformly.

[arosar]

The USCL allowed takebacks but your opponent is given extra time. I really hope that this concept can work so that we can have our own league simiar to the US one. And we give ourselves fancy team names too!

AR

[eclectic]

The USCL allowed takebacks but your opponent is given extra time. I really hope that this concept can work so that we can have our own league simiar to the US one. And we give ourselves fancy team names too!

AR

hey arosar!

remember that old plane joke about where the engines failed one by one such that the pilot successively increased the delay time leading one passenger to wryly comment ... "if all fail we'll be up here all day" ?

now just take the message within that joke to internet chess games and takebacks?

d'ya geddit?

if that fails then refer back to purdy and his take on takebacks

"expunge them from your visiting list"

[jenni]

In which games did the opponent refuse to allow the takeback?

Miona Ikeda vs Susan Sheng

[pax]

The trouble is that if you want a "black and white" rule (as opposed to grey), then you end up with either always allow takebacks (with rorts galore), or never allow takebacks (with people dropping queens because they have a dodgy mouse or a nervous hand). I don't think either of those scenarios is particularly palatable.

I like the idea of an automatic time penalty. Say, five minutes added to your opponent's clock. Perhaps also a limit on the number of takebacks that can be claimed (perhaps two per game). Takeback requests could also be recorded and examined by the opposing team's rep - any suspected abuse can be reported.

There is already a lot of honesty required (e.g all of the rules that are agreed to on the form). Allowing some leeway in takebacks doesn't seem to be too much of a stretch..

[eclectic]

Allowing some leeway in takebacks doesn't seem to be too much of a stretch..

WTF!!!???

[Libby]

I like the idea of an automatic time penalty. Say, five minutes added to your opponent's clock. Perhaps also a limit on the number of takebacks that can be claimed (perhaps two per game). Takeback requests could also be recorded and examined by the opposing team's rep - any suspected abuse can be reported.

There is already a lot of honesty required (e.g all of the rules that are agreed to on the form). Allowing some leeway in takebacks doesn't seem to be too much of a stretch..

And I'd be happy with this kind of compromise as well as it seems more like one of the balck & white options I proposed. If a player claims a mouse-slip & wants a takeback then it is allowed - not discretionary - a time penalty is imposed and the arbiter/organiser notes it so "problem" players are identified (or helped if it's a problem with mouse technique )

Otherwise, I'd probably prefer a blanket "tough luck" approach than put kids in a position of feeling awkward about asking for takebacks, resentful of OK-ing them or just plain confused about why it was OK for an opponent last week but not OK for them this time. It's all so subjective you can't tell me that even a disputes committee could identify a "genuine" mouse slip from a "dodgy" one with 100% certainty.

I really didn't want to start pointing at particular games. I wanted to point out that we are putting the kids in a bit of an awkward position by creating a grey area for them.

I had assumed information was distributed and rules were read to the extent players would know what was permissable and, beyond that, good will would prevail.

[eclectic]

what sign is often seen at a corner shop counter?

please do not ask for credit as our refusal may offend

or words to that effect

where takebacks are allowed on certain internet chess servers they can only be requested not demanded

yet there is tremendous psychological pressure, especially on the young (and naive), to yield to such requests

mitigating circumstances are often made for mouseslips but i believe this is the hole in the dyke which allows other takeback liberties

it's the player's responsibility to have their equipment clean, properly functioning etc and to have full concentration when using that equipment

life goes in one direction and the non allowance of takebacks in chess and the forward direction of pawns are i believe an allegory for this

in the long run juniors, whom you are trying to introduce to chess via this initiative, are not being done any favours if they are led to believe that takebacks are "de jure"

could they please be ruled as being

!!!O.U.T.!!!

PS my unreserved congratulations to that person in that game mentioned by jenni for refusing that takeback ... more power to her!!

[arosar]

if that fails then refer back to purdy and his take on takebacks

"expunge them from your visiting list"

Who cares about what Purdy had to say? He's dead! Long before the net era.

AR

[arosar]

!!!O.U.T.!!!

We should have takebacks just to piss off electic.

AR