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  1. #1
    CC International Master Brian_Jones's Avatar
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    soft titles (sf Zonal threads, bumped with new posts)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Gletsos
    Regarding the 50% titled opponent rule they count.
    This is why, when Australia was offered all those "undeserved" zonal titles some years ago in the Gold Coast, we should have kept quiet and just grabbed as many tiles as possible.

    The more active titled players the better - it helps future title aspirants and has a snowball effect that has not yet been seen in Australia or New Zealand!

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian_Jones
    This is why, when Australia was offered all those "undeserved" zonal titles some years ago in the Gold Coast, we should have kept quiet and just grabbed as many tiles as possible.

    The more active titled players the better - it helps future title aspirants and has a snowball effect that has not yet been seen in Australia or New Zealand!

    23 of the 26 Australians rated above 1400 who competed in the Gold Coast were internationally titled just after the events in 1999.

    Low rated club players simply drew with each other scoring 50% for the FIDE Master title.

    Brian Jones has rightly described himself as one of these undeserved title holders and suggests that we should create more and more sub standard title holders the more the better. This suggestion is disgraceful. Australia like all FIDE countries must ensure that FIDE titles are awarded only to players who fully deserve to hold them.

    FIDE zonals are for leading players in each nation to compete for the world championship. A 50% score for an FM title or 67% score for an IM title was designed for the top invited players. When our sub standard sub zonal was held beginners were allowed to play in the world championship in Australia thus creating all these underserved (Brian Jones words) title holders.

    Grandmaster Yasser Seirawan (USA) was understandably furious and rightly suggested Australia should return these titles to FIDE.

    In general terms International Master requires 3 norms (rating performance 2450+ in each one) with many other provisions and a 2400 rating.

    The idea that an Australian can visit a Pacific Island score 5 out of 5 against locals (all beginners) and 1 out of 4 against the rest and receive free entry to all tournaments for life in Australia is utterly absurd but it has happened.

    Australia now has a number of FIDE Masters who are not rated high enough to compete in our championship and are well below the minimum of 2300 the normal FM requirement.

    I repeat 23 of the 26 Australians rated above 1400 (not a misprint -900 rating points below the minimum FIDE level) were internationally titled after the 1999 Zonal and Brian Jones is delighted.

    Nick Speck has just completed his third and final IM norm in Gibraltar against GMs, IMs etc. and performed above 2450 and fulfilled all FIDE conditions. When he finally receives his IM certificate he can say with pride that his title was fully deserved.

    All leading Australian players who fought hard and deservedly for their titles (GM, IM, FM) are very unhappy that so many players drew their way to mastery against very weak club players.

  3. #3
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    Soft titles

    Peter is very right.Zonal tournaments should not be used for giving away titles .Nick Speck and George Xie are to be congratulated for their efforts to get titles good old fashioned ways.

  4. #4
    CC Grandmaster Garvinator's Avatar
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    how is this discussion any different to the thrust of my arguments about the zonal just held in NZ?

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter_parr
    Australia now has a number of FIDE Masters who are not rated high enough to compete in our championship and are well below the minimum of 2300 the normal FM requirement.
    I'll just point out that this is not a phenomenon unique to Australia. More than 50% of FMs worldwide are rated below 2300, and more than 55% of IMs are below 2400.

  6. #6
    CC International Master Brian_Jones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by leonid Sandler
    Peter is very right.Zonal tournaments should not be used for giving away titles .Nick Speck and George Xie are to be congratulated for their efforts to get titles good old fashioned ways.
    Just remind me how you got your title Leonid?

    Also, active FIDE Arbiters such as Stewart Reuben have been fixing swiss pairings for decades in order to gain title norm opportunities for players.

    As pax says, most players cannot hold the supposed rating level anyway. I know a few strong 2300+ FMs that deserve the IM title more than some 2300+ IMs but have unsuccessful despite many years of trying. The system is hardly fair and balanced throughout the world.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian_Jones
    Just remind me how you got your title Leonid?

    Also, active FIDE Arbiters such as Stewart Reuben have been fixing swiss pairings for decades in order to gain title norm opportunities for players.

    As pax says, most players cannot hold the supposed rating level anyway. I know a few strong 2300+ FMs that deserve the IM title more than some 2300+ IMs but have unsuccessful despite many years of trying. The system is hardly fair and balanced throughout the world.
    I think he got it old fashioned way (3 norms plus rating>2400), he can give more details if he wants so.

    As for FM, I don't think there are many "strong FM" deserving IM title, and those that do must be on the way to get it.
    The definition "strong 2300+ FM" is quite strange as FM is supposed to be 2300+. The adjective "strong" can only be applied to FM if his rating is over 2400.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian_Jones
    As pax says, most players cannot hold the supposed rating level anyway.
    If a player reaches 2300 they become FIDE master.
    If later they lose rating points that is OK.

    It is not OK for low rated club players to all draw with each all score 50% and 23 out of 26 (rated above 1400) to again international titles when they are nowhere near 2300.

    Brian please do the right thing and return your FM title to FIDE (as suggested by GM Seirawan). If you gain 90 rating points and reach 2200 in the 2006 City of Sydney in the Syndey CBD you may then apply for the Candidate Master Title (CFM).

    Perhaps we can meet at the City of Sydney next week and have a cup of coffee and a chat at the book stall.

    I find it difficult to understand your viewpoint that low rated club players should have FIDE master titles it makes no sense to me.

  9. #9
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    If you reach 2300 and do not pay the money. Then you say drop back to 2200+. Can you claim the title then?

  10. #10
    Account Permanently Banned firegoat7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter_parr
    Nick Speck has just completed his third and final IM norm in Gibraltar against GMs, IMs etc. and performed above 2450 and fulfilled all FIDE conditions. When he finally receives his IM certificate he can say with pride that his title was fully deserved.
    Haha, No doubt he will give his mate Chapman a lot of grief about who is the real IM What does he call them ZIMs...haha.

    cheers Fg7

  11. #11
    CC Grandmaster arosar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter_parr
    Brian please do the right thing and return your FM title to FIDE (as suggested by GM Seirawan). If you gain 90 rating points and reach 2200 in the 2006 City of Sydney in the Syndey CBD you may then apply for the Candidate Master Title (CFM).
    What? There is a FIDE CFM?

    Now I reckon we should revive our own national titles. We have them, don't we? Where's the guidelines for that, btw? I noticed that the kiwis use their nationals and so do Pinoys.

    Quote Originally Posted by peter_parr
    Perhaps we can meet at the City of Sydney next week and have a cup of coffee and a chat at the book stall.
    I will be there too. I'll have my camera with me. And I can't believe that the COS is next week already.

    AR

  12. #12
    CC International Master Brian_Jones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter_parr
    I find it difficult to understand your viewpoint that low rated club players should have FIDE master titles it makes no sense to me.
    I am very happy for Australian players to win FIDE titles. In fact I want more aussies to play chess and win titles. If we had 100,000 players and 100 FIDE Grandmasters then I would be over the moon.

    But maybe you are too old, inactive and set in your ways to understand that chess is for everybody and not just for you and your elitist mates!

  13. #13
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    Thank you for your interest Brian

    Hello Brian,
    About my international master title.I have scored 3 im norms.In 1994 I have won Australian masters Championship with result of 9,5 points from 11 games,in the same year I have scored 6,5 points out of 11 games in Gunadarma University international tournament in Indonesia and if my memory serves me right it was category 6 or 7 tournament.In 1996 I have scored my last norm in Chess Olympiad in Erevan with 7 points from 10 games with performance rating of 2459 in Category 4 tournament.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by leonid Sandler
    Hello Brian,
    About my international master title.I have scored 3 im norms.In 1994 I have won Australian masters Championship with result of 9,5 points from 11 games,in the same year I have scored 6,5 points out of 11 games in Gunadarma University international tournament in Indonesia and if my memory serves me right it was category 6 or 7 tournament.In 1996 I have scored my last norm in Chess Olympiad in Erevan with 7 points from 10 games with performance rating of 2459 in Category 4 tournament.
    This is a paradigm of how an IM title should be gained. Leonid scored very good results in several tough tournaments. As far as I am concerned Leonid is a dinki-di IM.

  15. #15
    CC Grandmaster arosar's Avatar
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    Brian is a very well informed fellow. He would not ask such a question if he knew the answer was so simple. I think, we are very much intrigued by his suggestion - which is clear enough.

    AR

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