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  1. #31
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frosty
    Plenty of life sciences represented there ... I see Biology, Botany, Molecular Genetics, Biochemistry, Genetics and many others.
    About 20% of the list in relevant fields depending on what you count. I am surprised by that; I thought it would be lower.

  2. #32
    CC Grandmaster Spiny Norman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    About 20% of the list in relevant fields depending on what you count. I am surprised by that; I thought it would be lower.
    Overall, it may well be. I have seen rough estimates that there may be as many as 10,000 creationist-viewpoint qualified scientists in the USA. No idea whether that's even remotely close to accurate. So the list I posted may be unrepresentative of the creationist scientific population ... it may have been deliberately constructed so as to cover the gamut of disciplines.

    It might be interesting to know whether there's a representative spread amongst creationist scientists (I suspect it'll be relatively close to the overall scientific population) and then compare that to intelligent design proponents (the non-creationist variety). I reckon the spread would be very different with I.D., but I have no stats to lend support to that view.
    “As you perhaps know, I haven't always been a Christian. I didn't go to religion to make me happy. I always knew a bottle of port would do that. If you want a religion to make you feel really comfortable, I certainly don't recommend Christianity.” -- C.S.Lewis

  3. #33
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    on doctorates and questions

    I am glad if Dr Sarfati is willing to answer questions.

    Nonetheless "creationism" and "young earth creationism" sound like the most disreputable pseudo-science I can imagine.

    I hope that it isn't 6000 year young creationism.

    And created by what anyway? I think if I turned up to his talk I would just walk out after about 10 minutes; I would have to confine my laughter at this sort of stupidity to some quiet corner of the road.

    There are some REALLY well qualified scientists who believe in this creationist stuff. One is that Dr Polkinghorne who goes around the world speaking about it. How these people claim to repersent anything that could be called a scientific method is beyond me. Indeed, if I had been one of their lecturers at university I would feel quite embarassed that I had tried, and failed, to instill any clear thinking in my stuudent.

  4. #34
    CC Grandmaster Spiny Norman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qpawn
    There are some REALLY well qualified scientists who believe in this creationist stuff.
    Yes, that's the really interesting thing about it. You would have thought 50-100 years ago that Y.E.C.s were an endangered breed ... but it is making a comeback. Provided that the discussions centre around the science of things, then I think that is healthy and nobody should fear it.

    I don't understand all the issues in respect of what's happening in the USA. The "Intelligent Design" Dateline program on SBS starts at 8:30pm tonight ... that's in 5 minutes! ... (in Melbourne anyway, not sure about other states). I think the idea of scientists, parents and schools suing one another is dreadful. But neither do I think that sweeping it all under the carpet will do.

    I would be quite content if my kids were taught all the ins-and-outs of evolution and its related theories PROVIDED a small amount of time was also set aside to consider a few of the main claims of the competing theories.
    “As you perhaps know, I haven't always been a Christian. I didn't go to religion to make me happy. I always knew a bottle of port would do that. If you want a religion to make you feel really comfortable, I certainly don't recommend Christianity.” -- C.S.Lewis

  5. #35
    CC Grandmaster Spiny Norman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frosty
    "Intelligent Design" Dateline program on SBS starts at 8:30pm tonight
    I thought the program was excellent and covered the facts of the matter really well (i.e. re: the hullabaloo in Kansas and elsewhere in the USA). Unfortunately it was also quite transparently slanted in such a way as to ridicule the non-evolutionist point of view. They could have easily left that out of the program and still communicated the message (trust the media not to let people make up their own mind). I thought the guy who did most of the talking for the evolutionist case presented his ideas really well.
    “As you perhaps know, I haven't always been a Christian. I didn't go to religion to make me happy. I always knew a bottle of port would do that. If you want a religion to make you feel really comfortable, I certainly don't recommend Christianity.” -- C.S.Lewis

  6. #36
    CC Candidate Master pballard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qpawn
    I am glad if Dr Sarfati is willing to answer questions.

    Nonetheless "creationism" and "young earth creationism" sound like the most disreputable pseudo-science I can imagine.

    I hope that it isn't 6000 year young creationism.

    And created by what anyway? I think if I turned up to his talk I would just walk out after about 10 minutes; I would have to confine my laughter at this sort of stupidity to some quiet corner of the road.

    There are some REALLY well qualified scientists who believe in this creationist stuff. One is that Dr Polkinghorne who goes around the world speaking about it. How these people claim to repersent anything that could be called a scientific method is beyond me. Indeed, if I had been one of their lecturers at university I would feel quite embarassed that I had tried, and failed, to instill any clear thinking in my stuudent.
    I get the impression you don't know much about Safarti or Polkinghorne, or the differences between their beliefs.
    http://www.peterballard.org

  7. #37
    Account Permanently Banned PHAT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greg
    Time deals the cruelest fate to the faux-scientists. They are forgotten.
    Dr Fankenstein , Dr Smith, Dr Strangelove, Dr Doolittle, Doctor, doctor you've got to help me - I just can't stop my hands shaking!" "Do you drink a lot?" "Not really - I spill most of it!"

  8. #38
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Any chance of getting Sarfati on this bulletin board? In 2002 he and Matt used to have some ripper flamewars. We could do with the entertainment!

  9. #39
    CC Grandmaster Alan Shore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    Any chance of getting Sarfati on this bulletin board? In 2002 he and Matt used to have some ripper flamewars. We could do with the entertainment!
    Please yes... drag him on here if you have to Frosty.

    I think the KB vs. JONO arguments would be more entertaining still.
    "I can't go back to yesterday because I was a different person then."
    - White Queen, Alice through the Looking-Glass

  10. #40
    CC Grandmaster Spiny Norman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    Any chance of getting Sarfati on this bulletin board? In 2002 he and Matt used to have some ripper flamewars. We could do with the entertainment!
    I'll ask Jon about it when I see him ... but I suspect he's probably too busy nowadays. Given he's an author who has sold 100s of 1000s of books I imagine he gets a lot of correspondence. Then there's the "day job" work he does for AiG doing research, editorial work, etc. Lastly there's the travel and speaking engagements (such as this weekend). But it would be interesting, yes, I actually went and found the old bulletin board the other day to see whether any of the old discussions were on there, but alas, no, I couldn't find anything written by Jon.
    “As you perhaps know, I haven't always been a Christian. I didn't go to religion to make me happy. I always knew a bottle of port would do that. If you want a religion to make you feel really comfortable, I certainly don't recommend Christianity.” -- C.S.Lewis

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frosty
    I would be quite content if my kids were taught all the ins-and-outs of evolution and its related theories PROVIDED a small amount of time was also set aside to consider a few of the main claims of the competing theories.
    Indeed. Here is a link to the fastest growing 'creationist' belief system in the world at the moment

    http://www.venganza.org/

  12. #42
    CC Grandmaster Spiny Norman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shaun
    Might create endless hours of amusement for some ... but its pretty juvenile ... in fact, it reminds me of the sort of nonsense that went on when evolutionary theory was first proposed and people were accused of being their monkey's uncle. So the wheel turns.

    Incidentally, for anyone who watched the SBS show last night ... did you notice the strawman picture of evolution that was mentioned? i.e. at some point in the program it talked about "humans evolving from chimpanzees". That's the kind of media misinformation that obfuscates and confuses people's thinking.

    Not to mention that deliberate slanting of the program in an anti-ID/anti-creationist tone. Several examples:
    - a pro-ID DVD was called a "slick production" (why not "professionally produced"?)
    - a professor of evolutionary biology was extensively interviewed, but no counterpart from the ID/creationist side was asked for comment (only the head of the Kansas school board, and he is not a scientist)
    “As you perhaps know, I haven't always been a Christian. I didn't go to religion to make me happy. I always knew a bottle of port would do that. If you want a religion to make you feel really comfortable, I certainly don't recommend Christianity.” -- C.S.Lewis

  13. #43
    CC FIDE Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frosty
    Might create endless hours of amusement for some ... but its pretty juvenile ... in fact, it reminds me of the sort of nonsense that went on when evolutionary theory was first proposed and people were accused of being their monkey's uncle. So the wheel turns.
    I strongly object to you mocking the belief system of so many. It seems to me a perfectly valid attempt to explain life, the universe and everything. Surely it has as much right to be taught in schools as other, more politically connected, systems.

  14. #44
    CC Grandmaster Spiny Norman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shaun
    I strongly object to you mocking the belief system of so many.
    “As you perhaps know, I haven't always been a Christian. I didn't go to religion to make me happy. I always knew a bottle of port would do that. If you want a religion to make you feel really comfortable, I certainly don't recommend Christianity.” -- C.S.Lewis

  15. #45
    CC Grandmaster Spiny Norman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shaun
    Do they have a peer-reviewed Spaghetti Monster technical journal? That would be interesting reading ...
    “As you perhaps know, I haven't always been a Christian. I didn't go to religion to make me happy. I always knew a bottle of port would do that. If you want a religion to make you feel really comfortable, I certainly don't recommend Christianity.” -- C.S.Lewis

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