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  1. #1
    CC Grandmaster arosar's Avatar
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    Draw by Repition in blitz

    Yesterday, I scored quite well in blitz - 5/7, beating a couple of titled players along the way and the very fast Jason Chan.

    ZYZ won the main section (8 player RR), local IM A Ker was awarded the title. Puchen and Peter Green won the reserves.

    Anyway, I have a question. Doesn't draw by 3x repetition apply in blitz? I saw 2 players repeat the same damn position I think maybe 5 times - just shuffling the same pieces repeatedly. The second player, an Aussie, attempted to make a draw claim on 3x rule but the first player, a kiwi, said, no you can't. And there were people there who said, well - this is blitz, since there are no scoresheets, you really can't prove the position has been repeated so this rule does not apply.

    I'm pretty sure this is a lot of bullshit.

    Can you please informe me?

    AR

  2. #2
    . eclectic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arosar
    Yesterday, I scored quite well in blitz - 5/7, beating a couple of titled players along the way and the very fast Jason Chan.

    ZYZ won the main section (8 player RR), local IM A Ker was awarded the title. Puchen and Peter Green won the reserves.

    Anyway, I have a question. Doesn't draw by 3x repetition apply in blitz? I saw 2 players repeat the same damn position I think maybe 5 times - just shuffling the same pieces repeatedly. The second player, an Aussie, attempted to make a draw claim on 3x rule but the first player, a kiwi, said, no you can't. And there were people there who said, well - this is blitz, since there are no scoresheets, you really can't prove the position has been repeated so this rule does not apply.

    I'm pretty sure this is a lot of bullshit.

    Can you please informe me?

    AR
    speaking strictly as a lay person here i would have thought having witnesses would be enough and if it were an arbiter present viewing the moves then the game should be been declared drawn
    .

  3. #3
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    It is very difficult to prove repetition in blitz. It would have to be a really clear repetition, and it would have to be witnessed by the arbiter.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by pax
    It is very difficult to prove repetition in blitz. It would have to be a really clear repetition, and it would have to be witnessed by the arbiter.
    Having witnesses is clearly not enough. If the arbiter watched the position repeated 3 times it is pretty much on his discretion. I would think different arbiters will make different decisions.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by drug
    Having witnesses is clearly not enough. If the arbiter watched the position repeated 3 times it is pretty much on his discretion. I would think different arbiters will make different decisions.
    An arbiter could never take the word of one or even several players, since so few people know the correct rules for repetition even when the moves are written down.

    Even if he witnessed the repetition himself, the arbiter needs to be 100% sure that the claim is valid. This would be very difficult in a lightning game unless the repetitions are consecutive.

  6. #6
    Illuminati Bill Gletsos's Avatar
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    Of course even if witnessed by the arbiter it requires a claim by one of the players and the claim needs to be made in the correct manner.
    As noted above being witnessed by people other than an arbiter is not sufficient.
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  7. #7
    . eclectic's Avatar
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    a good reason too why blitz finishes should NEVER be permitted in serious chess games
    .

  8. #8
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    I would award a draw by repetition in a blitz game if a correct claim was made by the player and I had witnessed the repetition. Since B3 applies in blitz games the player need not write the move.

    I might use witness advice in some situations but the list of provisos is long. There would have to be multiple witnesses who were ostensibly neutral and disinterested from the viewpoint of event standings. They would have to be able to reconstruct the position and agree with each other unanimously about the full sequence of moves producing the triple rep. It would have to be a case where no confusion was possible.
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  9. #9
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    If the position is being repeated, you could call the arbiter who
    could claim that neither player was trying to win and enforce a draw.

  10. #10
    CC Grandmaster Denis_Jessop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FM_Bill
    If the position is being repeated, you could call the arbiter who
    could claim that neither player was trying to win and enforce a draw.
    Under what law could the arbiter do that? Art 10.2 doesn't apply to blitz games.

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  11. #11
    Illuminati Bill Gletsos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Denis_Jessop
    Under what law could the arbiter do that? Art 10.2 doesn't apply to blitz games.
    The arbiter cannot.
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  12. #12
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    Smile

    Under what law could the arbiter do that? Art 10.2 doesn't apply to blitz games.
    Ok, I didn't know that.

    Something that happened to me once was that my opponent had more time than me and he just kept repeating (well more than 3 times) until I lost on time.

    Question: does 10.2 apply to blitz handicap games? I once had a game in which I had a 2 minutes to 8 handicap. We reached a bishops of opposite coloured ending in which my opponent just played on many moves till I lost on time.
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  13. #13
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    The current thread is four years old and since then the law has changed, and Article 10.2 does now apply to blitz games that are defined as "adequately supervised". The definition of adequate supervision is "one arbiter for one game", making it possible to apply 10.2 in, for instance, blitz playoffs for titles.

    Question: does 10.2 apply to blitz handicap games?
    According to the Laws "A ‘blitz’ game’ is one where all the moves must be made in a fixed time of less than 15 minutes for each player;" but it does not say whether the time must be the same for each player. The example of "armageddon blitz" suggests that maybe it need not, in which case a well-supervised blitz handicap game could be subject to 10.2. But really, organisers of handicap tournaments should specify this sort of thing.
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