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  1. #286
    Illuminati Bill Gletsos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drug
    Black wins in both cases. After 32 g4... the win is not obvious at all. I would think it is much easier to find the win after 32 Ke3... rather than 32 g4...
    Well maybe I'm missing a trick for white in the 32... g4 line that requires a particular response from black but I believe I can see how to win that where as I cant find a win after 32. ..Ke3.

    Maybe its late and I'm tired.
    The Force can have a strong influence on the weak-minded.
    Mos Eisley spaceport The toolbox. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy.

  2. #287
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Gletsos
    Well maybe I'm missing a trick for white in the 32... g4 line that requires a particular response from black but I believe I can see how to win that where as I cant find a win after 32. ..Ke3.

    Maybe its late and I'm tired.
    Just show your line and I will explain what is wrong (if anything wrong).

  3. #288
    Illuminati Bill Gletsos's Avatar
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    Well after 31. .. Kc5 in the line 32. g4 Kxc4 you have the following lines:

    33. gxf5 b5 34. Kg4 Kxc3 35. Kh5 Kb2 36. Kxh6 Kxa2 37. Kg7 b4 38.
    Kxf7 b3 39. Ke7 b2 which is clearly winning for Black.

    33. g5 h5 34. Kg3

    with 34... Kxc3 35. Kh4 b5 36. Kxh5 b4 37. Kh6 Kb2 38. Kg7 Kxa2 39. Kxf7 b3 40. g6 b2 41. g7 b1=Q 42. g8=Q which appears drawn

    or the clever move 34... Kd3 after which once Blacks king gets to e3, White eventually has to drop the f4 pawn.

    If White tries 35. a4 Ke3 36. a5 then 35... h4+ wins for Black.
    If White plays 35. Kf3 to stop the Black king getting to e3 then Black wins easily by 35... b5 and 36... Kxc3.

    However the really interesting line is 35. Kh4 Ke3 36. Kxh5 Kxf4 37. h4 Ke4 38. g6 fxg6+ 39. Kxg6 (note similarity to the position in Ly-Rogers after move 45.) f4 40. h5 f3 41. h6 f2 42. h7 f1=Q 43. h8=Q Qf5+ 44. Kg7 Qe5+ which with regards the Kings and Queens is identical to the Ly-Rogers position after move 53.

    However I am at a loss to find a win after 31. Kc5 if Black responds with 31... Ke3. e.g. 32. Kxc4 Kd2 then I can find no way for Black to make progress and infilrate the white position as White can just oscilate his King between c2 and d2. So what am I missing in this line.
    Last edited by Bill Gletsos; 17-01-2006 at 01:42 PM. Reason: Fixed typo
    The Force can have a strong influence on the weak-minded.
    Mos Eisley spaceport The toolbox. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy.

  4. #289
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Gletsos
    Well after 31. .. Kc5 in the line 32. g4 Kxc4 you have the following lines:

    33. gxf5 b5 34. Kg4 Kxc3 35. Kh5 Kb2 36. Kxh6 Kxa2 37. Kg7 b4 38.
    Kxf7 b3 39. Ke7 b2 which is clearly winning for White.

    33. g5 h5 34. Kg3

    with 34... Kxc3 35. Kh4 b5 36. Kxh5 b4 37. Kh6 Kb2 38. Kg7 Kxa2 39. Kxf7 b3 40. g6 b2 41. g7 b1=Q 42. g8=Q which appears drawn

    or the clever move 34... Kd3 after which once Blacks king gets to e3, White eventually has to drop the f4 pawn.

    If White tries 35. a4 Ke3 36. a5 then 35... h4+ wins for Black.
    If White plays 35. Kf3 to stop the Black king getting to e3 then Black wins easily by 35... b5 and 36... Kxc3.

    However the really interesting line is 35. Kh4 Ke3 36. Kxh5 Kxf4 37. h4 Ke4 38. g6 fxg6+ 39. Kxg6 (note similarity to the position in Ly-Rogers after move 45.) f4 40. h5 f3 41. h6 f2 42. h7 f1=Q 43. h8=Q Qf5+ 44. Kg7 Qe5+ which with regards the Kings and Queens is identical to the Ly-Rogers position after move 53.

    However I am at a loss to find a win after 31. Kc5 if Black responds with 31... Ke3. e.g. 32. Kxc4 Kd2 then I can find no way for Black to make progress and infilrate the white position as White can just oscilate his King between c2 and d2. So what am I missing in this line.
    You mean winning for black in the first line.

    I just found the 'clever' Kd3 (knowing Ly-Rogers was useful here!). Just about to start looking at Ke3 and Kd2. Doesn't seem easy to breach at first glance.

  5. #290
    Illuminati Bill Gletsos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trizza
    You mean winning for black in the first line.
    Yes, I fixed that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trizza
    I just found the 'clever' Kd3 (knowing Ly-Rogers was useful here!).
    Yes, it did.
    Quote Originally Posted by Trizza
    Just about to start looking at Ke3 and Kd2. Doesn't seem easy to breach at first glance.
    Yes, I'll need drug to show me that one.
    The Force can have a strong influence on the weak-minded.
    Mos Eisley spaceport The toolbox. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy.

  6. #291
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    I think I might have found it.

    32.Ke3 Kxc4 33.Kd2 b5 34. Kc2 b4 35.cxb4 Kxb4 36.Kb2 h5

    Black's active king seems enough to force the win. He can maintain the opposition and has enough waiting moves to force white to choose a side. White always loses the race.

    i.e. 37.Kc2 Kc4 38.Kd2 Kd4 (38.Kb2 Kd3) puts white in zugswang.

    Another point: 29.bxc4 looked odd to me at the time, though I hadn't calculated as much as this. 29.b4 seems to secure the draw comfortably.

  7. #292
    Illuminati Bill Gletsos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trizza
    I think I might have found it.

    32.Ke3 Kxc4 33.Kd2 b5 34. Kc2 b4 35.cxb4 Kxb4 36.Kb2 h5

    Black's active king seems enough to force the win. He can maintain the opposition and has enough waiting moves to force white to choose a side. White always loses the race.

    i.e. 37.Kc2 Kc4 38.Kd2 Kd4 (38.Kb2 Kd3) puts white in zugswang..
    Yes, well done, the line you give is winning for Black. I had only looked at 34... a5 prior to the b4 push.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trizza
    Another point: 29.bxc4 looked odd to me at the time, though I hadn't calculated as much as this. 29.b4 seems to secure the draw comfortably.
    So it would appear.
    The Force can have a strong influence on the weak-minded.
    Mos Eisley spaceport The toolbox. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy.

  8. #293
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trizza
    I think I might have found it.

    32.Ke3 Kxc4 33.Kd2 b5 34. Kc2 b4 35.cxb4 Kxb4 36.Kb2 h5

    Black's active king seems enough to force the win. He can maintain the opposition and has enough waiting moves to force white to choose a side. White always loses the race.

    i.e. 37.Kc2 Kc4 38.Kd2 Kd4 (38.Kb2 Kd3) puts white in zugswang.

    Another point: 29.bxc4 looked odd to me at the time, though I hadn't calculated as much as this. 29.b4 seems to secure the draw comfortably.
    Well done..

    Finding the clever Kd3 during the game is well above my head. It was found by Zhong after the game. The variations with Kc3 instead are slightly better for white because with queens on board white king is closer to the pawns. This is I believe why Molton thought he was winning. He did not see kd3 either.

    29 b4 is a draw. I guess this is a difference between an older player and a younger one. Older player intuitively can see the danger of playing 29 bc, while younger one thinks his calculations are to be trusted.

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