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  1. #16
    CC International Master Cat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by firegoat7
    Well put Cat, and my I say its good to see you back.

    cheers fg7
    Thanks fg7
    Power comes from the barrel of a gun.

  2. #17
    CC International Master Cat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by firegoat7
    You are being deliberately ignorant. You know aswell as anybody else that Islamic oil wealth was created by American,British and European business expansion. You also know aswell as anybody else that the elites who benefit the most from these riches are not the majority of citizens within these Islamic or western countries.



    cheers Fg7
    Exactly! The Neo-cons not only see it as acceptable to extend their influence in areas of political & economic importance, paraphrasing Paul Wolfowitz, as the world's first hyperpower they see it as a moral imperative. Maintaining a wealthy elite in those countries helps to support their enterprises and protect their interests. If you doubt these intentions, read the Pentagon Report on Global Warming and ask yourself 'why is Wolfowitz head of the World Bank?'
    Power comes from the barrel of a gun.

  3. #18
    CC Grandmaster arosar's Avatar
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    Funny...while Washington utterly refuses to sign Kyoto, a whole bunch of states have implemented their own Kyoto-like agreements whereby companies can trade carbon emission credits (or whatever they're called). Pretty soon, Bush's hand will be forced and the USA must agree with the rest of the world. And when this happens, that idiot poodle, JH will also have to follow.

    As for why Wolfie is head of WB, well, that's cronyism for you. Harriet Miers was just the latest example (forced to back down more to appease conservatives than worries about cronyism). And to think that this is the one administration that harps on about good governance, democracy, blah, blah...

    They're sick c__ts this Administration.

    AR

  4. #19
    CC Candidate Master Grendel's Avatar
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    It's all very well, this holier-than-thou attitude towards wesstern leaders, but once theres a terrorist attack on Australian mainland you might not be so smug.

  5. #20
    CC Candidate Master pballard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    Likewise there would be some level of support for abortionist-killing among "Christian" communities here. I have personally spoken to "Christians" who say they could not condemn someone who killed an abortionist, whatever their doctrine says otherwise.
    (Shudder)

    OK, there's loons among Christians, as well as others at its fringes. I don't dispute that, and have at times done my small part to combat it. I'm just making the point that Christian terrorism is not a current concern.

    Is it [terrorism] really its [Islam's] problem? If one religion is responsible for warped versions of its teachings, aren't all? Doesn't that make Christianity responsible for all the lunatics that do idiotic things in its name too?
    It is Islam's problem in the sense that its teachings are being used to justify terrorism. So yes, Islamic leaders and teachers need to deal with it. In fact I am of the opinion that the most important people for defeating Islamic terrorism - which is an ideal, not a country you can bomb - are the moderate Muslims. Without their help it is just about impossible.

    In the same way, I acknowledge that Christians need to be strong in denouncing offensive teachings which pose as forms of Christianity (e.g. saying attack on Iraq is a form of holy war in God's name). However, without trying to sound perfect, I think that by and large Christians are doing a fairly good job at this (which isn't to say we can't do better).

    [Edit - spelling fix]
    Last edited by pballard; 15-11-2005 at 03:08 PM.
    http://www.peterballard.org

  6. #21
    CC Grandmaster Alan Shore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grendel
    It's all very well, this holier-than-thou attitude towards wesstern leaders, but once theres a terrorist attack on Australian mainland you might not be so smug.
    If there is, it would have been brought on by the very western leaders you seek to defend. The biggest enemy now is the media - spreading ridiculous claims of possible threats in a vain effort to justify its new terror laws. It's upsetting that so many will eat it up simply because it is served up in front of them.
    "I can't go back to yesterday because I was a different person then."
    - White Queen, Alice through the Looking-Glass

  7. #22
    CC Candidate Master Grendel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belthasar
    If there is, it would have been brought on by the very western leaders you seek to defend. The biggest enemy now is the media - spreading ridiculous claims of possible threats in a vain effort to justify its new terror laws. It's upsetting that so many will eat it up simply because it is served up in front of them.
    Its nothing more than trendy, leftist cynicism to blame western governments and the media for the rise in terrorism. Al Qaeda were planting bombs and crashing aeroplanes way before any western governments waded into the middle east. the media didn't bomb bali. western governments are responding to the terror threat, they're not provoking it. god know's what would have happened by now if we weren't taking positive action. the strengthening of asio has been pretty much supported by all the state leaders, regardless of political persuation. it's easy to call foul when you have no responsibility.

  8. #23
    CC Candidate Master pballard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grendel
    Its nothing more than trendy, leftist cynicism to blame western governments and the media for the rise in terrorism. Al Qaeda were planting bombs and crashing aeroplanes way before any western governments waded into the middle east.
    Ever heard of the first Iraq war? Ongoing Iraq sanctions, US military presence in Saudi Arabia and US support for Israel?

    These of course do not justify 9/11, but they were the reasons given by OBL.
    http://www.peterballard.org

  9. #24
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pballard
    Ever heard of the first Iraq war? Ongoing Iraq sanctions, US military presence in Saudi Arabia and US support for Israel?

    These of course do not justify 9/11, but they were the reasons given by OBL.
    I don't know what ultra right wing media outlet Grendel subscribes to but the West has been meddling in Middle Eastern politics since the crusades and manipulating the oil reserves there almost since the invention of the internal combustion engine.

    Was 911 justified, no. However nothing happens without motivation. And the West's record cannot be called faultless in terms of providing fuel to that motivation.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  10. #25
    CC Candidate Master Grendel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pballard
    Ever heard of the first Iraq war? Ongoing Iraq sanctions, US military presence in Saudi Arabia and US support for Israel?

    These of course do not justify 9/11, but they were the reasons given by OBL.
    iraq invaded kuwait, the usa & allies were invited in to defend against iraqi aggressors. sauqi arabia & israel also invite and appreciate american support - america does a lot of good as an internatiional police man.

  11. #26
    CC Candidate Master Grendel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    I don't know what ultra right wing media outlet Grendel subscribes to but the West has been meddling in Middle Eastern politics since the crusades and manipulating the oil reserves there almost since the invention of the internal combustion engine.

    Was 911 justified, no. However nothing happens without motivation. And the West's record cannot be called faultless in terms of providing fuel to that motivation.
    this view is the view of the government and our allies, not some ultra-right media outlet. i''ve said nothing you wouldn't hear from the white house or canberra. the west may not be faultless, but the alternatve would be worse.

  12. #27
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grendel
    this view is the view of the government and our allies, not some ultra-right media outlet. i''ve said nothing you wouldn't hear from the white house or canberra. the west may not be faultless, but the alternatve would be worse.
    Well that's all right then. They would never lie. I suppose you have heard of watergate and children overboard?
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  13. #28
    CC Candidate Master pballard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grendel
    iraq invaded kuwait, the usa & allies were invited in to defend against iraqi aggressors. sauqi arabia & israel also invite and appreciate american support
    All true. But to say "Al Qaeda were planting bombs and crashing aeroplanes way before any western governments waded into the middle east" is incorrect.
    http://www.peterballard.org

  14. #29
    CC International Master four four two's Avatar
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    America feeds the monster[Iraq],then when the monster gets to big for them they say,"dont worry we will kill the monster for you".What a policeman!

    American foreign policy through the cold war ,as well as russian,chinese,french,etc purposely built up ditactorships to suit their own ends.When these dictatorships had served their purposes they either cut off the finance and hoped for it to die,or they overthrew it and put a new nasty puppet in place. Oh,and along the way millions of people died...
    If this is the actions of a "good policemen" I would hate to see what the consequences of a "bad cop" would be.

  15. #30
    Account Permanently Banned firegoat7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grendel
    Its nothing more than trendy, leftist cynicism to blame western governments and the media for the rise in terrorism. Al Qaeda were planting bombs and crashing aeroplanes way before any western governments waded into the middle east. the media didn't bomb bali. western governments are responding to the terror threat, they're not provoking it. god know's what would have happened by now if we weren't taking positive action. the strengthening of asio has been pretty much supported by all the state leaders, regardless of political persuation. it's easy to call foul when you have no responsibility.
    Grendel, you need to read some history.

    The 20th century was regarded as the most civilised century of humankind. It was also a century in which more people died from war and its effects then a combined total from all previous known wars and centuries.

    Regardless of your irrational claim about a left wing conspiracy, one thing is certain. All historians, regardless of which side of politics they are on, agree that the 20th century was the most brutal century ever in the history of humankind. If this is the case, then what seperates crimes perpetuated by the state, as oppossed to crimes perpetuated by individuals, against humanity? That said, who defines terrorism and who are the real terrorists? Who classifies what terrorists are? What exactly is terrorism?

    cheers Fg7

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