Page 1 of 162 1231151101 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 2421
  1. #1
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    37,602

    Israel-Palestine / religious terrorism (was non-islamic religious terrorism)

    A letter I sent to the Hobart Mercury yesterday. I have an excellent publication record in said paper but expect that this one will probably not make the cut, somehow:

    Prime Minister Howard has recently called on Muslim communities to expose those supposedly within their ranks who preach what he calls a perverted and fanatical version of Islam. Islam, however, is certainly not the only religion invoked by terrorists. The USA has a long and bloody history of
    Christian terrorism, from the once massive Ku Klux Klan to modern nutcases who have killed abortion workers and made death threats against the judge
    and family involved in the Terri Schiavo case. In Uganda, Christian and
    Islamic terrorism exist side by side in the Lord's Resistance Army, which
    has kidnapped tens of thousands of children for use as soldiers and sex
    slaves. Is it Howard's own bias as a Christian that makes him single out
    Islam in such a simplistic fashion? Are there no votes in exposing
    Christian terrorism because its sympathisers in the moral far right direct
    their preferences to the Liberals? Or would any mention of "perverted and
    fanatical" variants of Christianity invite too close an examination of the
    illiberal, kooky and regressive versions of the faith espoused by some of
    his own MPs?
    Last edited by Kevin Bonham; 14-11-2005 at 12:38 PM.

  2. #2
    CC Candidate Master AES's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Adelaide, Australia
    Posts
    245
    This is a very good point. All religions should be examined. Yes, even Christianity. Anyone can abuse a religion for their own personal goals. Little Johnnie should explore with Christian leaders whether any religious nuts (who are not real Christians) could abuse the Bible to do acts of terrorism. This would ensure that all religions are treated equally with no preference/bias.
    Australian Internet Chess Championships-Adults and Juniors
    www.ausnetchess.org

  3. #3
    CC Grandmaster Alan Shore's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Crane, Poole & Schmidt
    Posts
    3,871
    That's awesome Kevin, I really hope it does get published!
    "I can't go back to yesterday because I was a different person then."
    - White Queen, Alice through the Looking-Glass

  4. #4
    CC Candidate Master pballard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Adelaide
    Posts
    372
    Hmm, a handle of nutters who have murdered abortion providers (does their number even exceed single digits?), and a terrorist group in Uganda (who, as far as I can tell, does not real links to the main church groups there).

    Yep, we're really being overrun by Christian terrorism.

    Besides, I think the Christian community has a pretty good record in denouncing hate and murderers (supposedly) from within their own midst. (As does some, even most, of western Islam, I must add). If Christians knew of a right wing group planning killings, do you really think they wouldn't act? To choose a more moderate example, (most) churches were very loud in denouncing Pauline Hanson.

    And in case you hadn't noticed, the *current* terrorism threats come from Muslims so naturally he's calling on good-willed Muslims to cooperate.
    http://www.peterballard.org

  5. #5
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    37,602
    Quote Originally Posted by pballard
    Hmm, a handle of nutters who have murdered abortion providers (does their number even exceed single digits?), and a terrorist group in Uganda (who, as far as I can tell, does not real links to the main church groups there).
    I could have easily extended it to "Christian" defiance of the State in general, eg David Koresh, the Revd Jim Jones, militant "Christian patriots", and so on. I don't think the issue of links to the real church is relevant - is al-Qaeda linked to mainstream Islam?

    Besides, I think the Christian community has a pretty good record in denouncing hate and murderers (supposedly) from within their own midst. (As does some, even most, of western Islam, I must add). If Christians knew of a right wing group planning killings, do you really think they wouldn't act? To choose a more moderate example, (most) churches were very loud in denouncing Pauline Hanson.
    Not really a relevant example. While some One Nation supporters were Christians, Hanson herself is an atheist.

    I think most Christians would act without needing to be told what to do by their Prime Minister. I also think the same is true of most Muslims.

    And in case you hadn't noticed, the *current* terrorism threats come from Muslims so naturally he's calling on good-willed Muslims to cooperate.
    Yes, but he is missing an excellent opportunity to stress that terrorism is unacceptable and that no religion should ever be used to justify it. I detect a subtle unstated slur in his words that this is some kind of "problem" Islam has that it has to address, when actually it is a problem from time to time for pretty much any religion.

  6. #6
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    The multiverse
    Posts
    21,569
    Quote Originally Posted by pballard
    Yep, we're really being overrun by Christian terrorism.
    I immediately thought of IRA terrorist acts in Nth Ireland and England. They are a prime example of Christian terrorists if ever there was one. Not to mention their protestant counterparts.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  7. #7
    CC Candidate Master pballard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Adelaide
    Posts
    372
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    I could have easily extended it to "Christian" defiance of the State in general, eg David Koresh, the Revd Jim Jones, militant "Christian patriots", and so on.
    True, but they are very isolated incidents (and well in the past). Rincewind's mention of the IRA was a better example; but that's more political than religious - I've never heard of IRA terrorists killing in Jesus' name or appealing to Catholic ideals to further their cause.

    I don't think the issue of links to the real church is relevant - is al-Qaeda linked to mainstream Islam?
    I understand your point... but Al-Qaeda and Islamic terrorism does have a lot of popular support among Muslims. I've seen figures of between 25 and 75% support in Muslim countries. No doubt it's much lower among Muslims here, but there is obviously some level of support.

    Not really a relevant example. While some One Nation supporters were Christians, Hanson herself is an atheist.
    It is relevant in the sense that she attracted support from a fair sized minority of Christians, but nevertheless the vast majority of churches came down very hard in condemning her views (and by extension, those of their fellow Christians).

    Yes, but he [J. Howard] is missing an excellent opportunity to stress that terrorism is unacceptable and that no religion should ever be used to justify it.
    Why restrict it to religions? How about e.g. political groups?

    I detect a subtle unstated slur in his words that this is some kind of "problem" Islam has that it has to address, when actually it is a problem from time to time for pretty much any religion.
    But the reality is that, at the moment, there is a "problem" which Islam has to address.
    http://www.peterballard.org

  8. #8
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    37,602
    Quote Originally Posted by pballard
    True, but they are very isolated incidents (and well in the past).
    If we add up all the groups I've mentioned (Klan-derived groups were still lynching away into the 1980s) we've got several different terrorist-type Christian groups active in one nation, the USA, over a period of only 30 years. It's not as big a global problem as the current wave of "Islamic terror" right now, but it's there and it's persistent, and it's bound to have sympathisers here.

    I understand your point... but Al-Qaeda and Islamic terrorism does have a lot of popular support among Muslims. I've seen figures of between 25 and 75% support in Muslim countries. No doubt it's much lower among Muslims here, but there is obviously some level of support.
    Likewise there would be some level of support for abortionist-killing among "Christian" communities here. I have personally spoken to "Christians" who say they could not condemn someone who killed an abortionist, whatever their doctrine says otherwise.

    It is relevant in the sense that she attracted support from a fair sized minority of Christians, but nevertheless the vast majority of churches came down very hard in condemning her views (and by extension, those of their fellow Christians).
    True - but doesn't that make it the same as the IRA - a political issue in which people with religious views happened to be involved?

    Why restrict it to religions? How about e.g. political groups?
    I'd have no objection to extending it to all forms of possible cause of terrorism.

    But the reality is that, at the moment, there is a "problem" which Islam has to address.
    Is it really its problem? If one religion is responsible for warped versions of its teachings, aren't all? Doesn't that make Christianity responsible for all the lunatics that do idiotic things in its name too?

  9. #9
    CC International Master Cat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    in long grass
    Posts
    1,562
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    Is it Howard's own bias as a Christian that makes him single out
    Islam in such a simplistic fashion? Are there no votes in exposing
    Christian terrorism because its sympathisers in the moral far right direct
    their preferences to the Liberals? Or would any mention of "perverted and
    fanatical" variants of Christianity invite too close an examination of the
    illiberal, kooky and regressive versions of the faith espoused by some of
    his own MPs?[/i]
    I suspect it's all to do with perception management, the specific design of western governments to dehumanise alternative cultures in order that their subjugation be more acceptable to our sensibilities. Our own standard of living is entirely dependant upon the enslavement of a large swathe of humanity, a reality too brutal for most of us to bear. By encouraging the perception that these people are fanatics or crazies, western governments can maintain the political support for their unholy crusades and keep domestic opinion in check. It's a load of old Goebbels!!
    Power comes from the barrel of a gun.

  10. #10
    Account Permanently Banned firegoat7's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    MCC
    Posts
    2,809
    Quote Originally Posted by Cat
    I suspect it's all to do with perception management, the specific design of western governments to dehumanise alternative cultures in order that their subjugation be more acceptable to our sensibilities. Our own standard of living is entirely dependant upon the enslavement of a large swathe of humanity, a reality too brutal for most of us to bear. By encouraging the perception that these people are fanatics or crazies, western governments can maintain the political support for their unholy crusades and keep domestic opinion in check. It's a load of old Goebbels!!
    Well put Cat, and my I say its good to see you back.

    cheers fg7

  11. #11
    CC International Master four four two's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    DeltaQuadrant4...
    Posts
    1,771
    Do you own a horse Peter? Thinking of going on a crusade?
    25-75% support in islamic countries, what utter rubbish!
    If Al-Qaeda and "islamic" terrorists had that kind of support then the americans wouldnt have even had a chance of invading Iraq.The middle east alone has over 200 million muslims,which means by your reckoning that Al-Qaeda and other terrorist groups have at least 50 million supporters.If 10% of 50 million people were to be involved in active action then every government in the middle east would have been overthrown by now .
    Stop regurgitating this stupid vile from the right wing press and use your brain for once.

  12. #12
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    37,602
    Quote Originally Posted by Cat
    Our own standard of living is entirely dependant upon the enslavement of a large swathe of humanity, a reality too brutal for most of us to bear. By encouraging the perception that these people are fanatics or crazies, western governments can maintain the political support for their unholy crusades and keep domestic opinion in check. It's a load of old Goebbels!!
    Much as I like to get stuck into the current government, I think the above falls over a bit empirically when you consider that some of the countries where support for Islamic terror is supposed to be strong are actually quite wealthy.

  13. #13
    Account Permanently Banned firegoat7's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    MCC
    Posts
    2,809
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    Much as I like to get stuck into the current government, I think the above falls over a bit empirically when you consider that some of the countries where support for Islamic terror is supposed to be strong are actually quite wealthy.
    You are being deliberately ignorant. You know aswell as anybody else that Islamic oil wealth was created by American,British and European business expansion. You also know aswell as anybody else that the elites who benefit the most from these riches are not the majority of citizens within these Islamic or western countries.

    Cats claims do not fall short empirically because to do that you would have to show empirically that the wealth of a nation ie GDP is connected to the general population, something that economists ignore every time they attempt to explain "wealth", since their is no individual statistical measurement of wealth anyway, except for mass statistical generalisations that are all, contextual speaking ,economically and culturally relative.

    cheers Fg7

  14. #14
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    37,602
    Quote Originally Posted by firegoat7
    You are being deliberately ignorant. You know aswell as anybody else that Islamic oil wealth was created by American,British and European business expansion. You also know aswell as anybody else that the elites who benefit the most from these riches are not the majority of citizens within these Islamic or western countries.
    No, you're just picking a fight with me because of personal bias. Feel free to look up the relevant demographic indicators for the condition of the majority of the population; you will not find Saudi Arabia (for instance) too close to the bottom of the pile.

  15. #15
    CC Grandmaster Spiny Norman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    4,437
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    If one religion is responsible for warped versions of its teachings, aren't all? Doesn't that make Christianity responsible for all the lunatics that do idiotic things in its name too?
    I think the first part of your first sentence is the clue that is needed. Islam is no more responsible for the current wave of terrorists than Christianity is responsible for the KKK.

    The fact that some people claim a religious mandate to murder and maim does not mean that such a mandate either exists or is promoted by the mainstream of that religion. As you pointed out, significant "kooks" pop up from time to time, but they are the exception, not the rule.

    Now if the mainstream start promoting violence, then that is another matter altogether.

    As for whether Christianity condones the killing of abortionists ... it does not. Whilst many Christians (probably most, but not all) disapprove of abortion as a solution to unwanted pregnancy, I cannot find any justification in Scripture for murder (or abortionists) as a solution to the problem. Nearby to my church is an abortion clinic. We regularly see people outside waving placards, protesting, etc. I personally disapprove of their approach to the problem. Marginalising and isolating both the doctors and the patients seems extremely counter-productive. I would much rather see church people offering support to those in need, rather than vilifying them.
    “As you perhaps know, I haven't always been a Christian. I didn't go to religion to make me happy. I always knew a bottle of port would do that. If you want a religion to make you feel really comfortable, I certainly don't recommend Christianity.” -- C.S.Lewis

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. life as an atheist in Australia
    By qpawn in forum Religion and Science
    Replies: 102
    Last Post: 24-06-2006, 07:37 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •