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  1. #16
    CC Grandmaster Garvinator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    I would also be interested to see data on this if anyone has enough records to prepare a full list.
    the list would also have to take into account the rating uplifts in the last few years.

  2. #17
    CC International Master four four two's Avatar
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    Kevin,isnt Raymond Song the otherwise ineligible player who has been given a spot in the Australian championship?,or are there 2 spots in total?

    Kevin,if an adult is a rapidly improving player and they are not a state champion and dont meet the 2150 cut off will they also be eligible to apply realisticly for the Australian championship?

  3. #18
    Account Suspended jenni's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ggrayggray
    ACT people, who is likely to be nominated if Michael Wei cant play and Junta decides to play the juniors?
    Not being on the ACTCA, I am not necessarily up to date with what is happening, but I have not heard of anyone else being put forward.

  4. #19
    Account Suspended jenni's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ggrayggray
    I would like to know how many juniors that got in under this clause have then automatically qualified (ie over 2150 acf) two years later for the next Australian Championships?
    I think Tomek Rej might have got in via this clause - he's now over 2200 (and not due to any uplift factor).

    I believe most juniors and parents are not likely to push themselves forward undeservedly. Most are more likely to feel they are not good enough. The ones that do request it are very likely ones who will be over 2150 in 2 years time.
    Last edited by jenni; 10-11-2005 at 03:41 PM.

  5. #20
    Account Suspended jenni's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by four four two
    Kevin,isnt Raymond Song the otherwise ineligible player who has been given a spot in the Australian championship?,or are there 2 spots in total?

    :
    This is the full text of Bylaw 1

    "BY-LAW NO.1

    Australian Chess Championship & Australian Major

    1. Any other by-law which purports to apply to the Australian Chess Championship
    and the Australian Major shall be valid, but any section which is directly or
    indirectly inconsistent with this by-law shall, in its application to the
    Australian Chess Championship and the Australian Major, have no effect.

    Australian Chess Championship

    2. General Qualifications. An Australian citizen or a person with permanent
    resident status under the Migration Act 1958 (Cwth) who -
    a. has an ACF rating, whether provisional or not, on the list current at
    the close of entries of at least 2150; or
    b. is deemed by the ACF Council to be of an equivalent level of proficiency
    is entitled to play in the Australian Chess Championship.

    3. Special Qualifications. A person who is not entitled to play in the
    Australian Chess Championship under By-law No.1.2 is entitled to play in the
    Australian Chess Championship if the person is -
    a. the current Australian Champion;
    b. the current or immediately previous Australian Junior Champion;
    c. the current or immediately previous Australian Women?s Champion;
    d. the winner of the previous Australian Major;
    e. one person nominated by each State Chess Association, who is, in the
    opinion of the ACF Council, ordinarily resident in that State, if that State
    would not otherwise have a person in the Australian Chess Championship.
    f. a current Champion of a State or Territory that
    has an Association which is affiliated with the ACF;
    g. a junior (according to FIDE definition) who is improving and is deemed by
    the ACF Council to be of sufficient standard;
    h. (i) a person, not being an Australian citizen or a person with permanent
    resident status under the Migration Act 1958 (Cwth), who has a rating of at
    least 2250 on the most recent FIDE rating list and who has played at least
    20 ACF-rated games in the two years before entries close for the Australian
    Championship; or
    (ii) a New Zealand citizen or permanent resident who has a rating of at
    least 2250 on the most recent FIDE rating list;
    provided that the total number of players under this paragraph is not to
    exceed four, being the four highest FIDE rated entrants.

    4. The ACF Council may decide that a person, who is otherwise eligible under
    paragraph h of By-law No.1.3., is ineligible to play in the Australian Chess
    Championship on the ground that their FIDE rating materially overstates
    their present level of proficiency.
    Notwithstanding the provisions of paragraph 3, a person who is a State or
    Territory champion in the year 2000 shall be eligible to play in the 2002
    Australian Championship"

    5. The ACF Council may, in exceptional circumstances, invite one otherwise
    ineligible player to compete in the Australian Chess Championship.

    6. The Australian Chess Championship shall be a swiss or (double) round-robin
    tournament of at least 11, but no more than 18 rounds.

    Australian Major

    7. The Australian Major shall be open to all persons who have a current ACF
    rating of less than 2150. The Australian Major shall also be open to unrated
    players who are deemed to be of a playing strength less than 2150 ACF, and who
    are not eligible for the Australian Chess Championship through the provisions in
    Section 2.

    8. The Australian Major shall be a swiss or round-robin tournament of at least
    11, but no more than 18 rounds.

    Minor Tournament

    9. State Associations or Territory Associations conducting the Australian
    Championships on behalf of the ACF are strongly encouraged, but not compelled,
    to hold a minor tournament in conjunction with the Championships. An example of
    an appropriate minor tournament would be Under 1600."

    As can be seen juniors come under 3g and thre are no limits on numbers. Any junior admitted under 3 g does not affect conditions referred to by Kevin, which are 3h and 5.

  6. #21
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by four four two
    Kevin,isnt Raymond Song the otherwise ineligible player who has been given a spot in the Australian championship?,or are there 2 spots in total?
    As pointed out by jenni both Raymond Song and Chris Wallis have been admitted under 3(g). "Otherwise ineligible" means after all the other formalised qualifications have been applied. Clause 5 is sometimes used to avoid the bye.

    Kevin,if an adult is a rapidly improving player and they are not a state champion and dont meet the 2150 cut off will they also be eligible to apply realisticly for the Australian championship?
    Yes, they can apply for inclusion under 2(b). We would have to be satisfied that they were now strong enough to be considered equivalent in strength to a 2150-rated player even though their rating was below that.

    More commonly 2(b) just recognises that adult ratings can bob about a bit and someone whose rating bobs around the threshold should be let in even when rated just below it.
    Last edited by Kevin Bonham; 10-11-2005 at 03:58 PM.

  7. #22
    CC Grandmaster Alan Shore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by firegoat7
    Hello,

    Here we go again,another bi-yearly championship with the usual stories.

    This is the most recent post from the ACF bulletin.........


    "The ACF Council has appointed the Selection Committee for the Australian Championship 2005/2006, comprising Kevin Bonham, Bill Gletsos and Denis Jessop. The committee's function is to decide any questions of eligibility that might arise in relation to entry to the Australian Championship.

    Independently of that, the Council has decided that Chris Wallis is to be eligible to play in the Australian Championship on the "improving junior" ground in the By-laws. There is no limit on the number of juniors who may receive such approval so that it is still open to any other junior, who wishes to play and is not otherwise eligible, to apply if they think they are of Australian Championship standard."

    - Denis Jessop

    The first suprise is ..... why appoint two bots to fill the same position. To suggest that Denis will have an independent voice, when confronting Bill Bonham, makes the selection process a joke. I can not remember a time when BillBot and Bonhambot have ever disagreed with each other on this bulletin board. One wonders how they will ever disagree on the selection panel. I can imagine the arguements, picture this scenario...

    Scene: The flowerpot men have to decide between a taleneted adult player who has a rating of 2100, we will call this person Pat Rolrate and a talented junior, whom we will call, Robie Gesiou , just for arguements sake .

    Billbot: The adult player has the higher rating
    DJ: Maybe we ought to examine their tournament performances
    Bonhambot: I don't like children
    DJ: Well the adult has performed better recently, but the kid did well at the Canberra open in which he achieved 20/20 against an average rating field of -123.
    Bonhambot: Clearly the kid is almost as talented as me!
    Billbot: According to my calculation he will be 3rd on the Australian rating list after that one off tournament result.
    DJ: But the adult scored 49% against a field of 27 GMs, 123IMS and 253 FMs through the year.[/B]
    Bonhambot: Talentless dilletante!, wouldn't even get a pass mark in my lecture subject Snails,Greenies, Labor and Politcs: Biography of a Biologist
    Billbot: And he dropped 14 points under the ELO system, but 123 according to my calculations based on the Glicko, with a Billbot factor of warp 10.
    DJ: So whats the verdict? Im voting for the adult
    Billbot: your a fool Sweeney....(editors note: the actual transcriptions from the meeting had to be edited here due to length...suffice to say that for the next two years Billbot continued with his Vietnam veteran, chopper hallucination, recollections about M.S, and how he "destroyed the N.S.W.C.A, junior chess, language of the human race... etc etc.
    Billbot: Thats enough about Matt Sweeney I have banned him from my memory, back to your question Denis, err what was it?
    DJ: Im voting for the adult Billbot, what about you two?
    Billbot: If you take into consideration my Billbot RD factor of Warp 10 and the fact that 6 Australian rating periods have expired since we bagan this council meeting, then its clear that at this time the junior is rated 0.00001 ahead of the adult in the current rating epoch. So my vote is for Robie
    Bonhambot: I'm with B1
    Billbot: Good on you B2

    cheers Fg7

    That post made my day.

    FG7, you are a comic genius!

    Oh yeah.. content wise.. um.. why is that clause there anyway? Tell him to come back next year. Otherwise, why have it U2150 at all?
    "I can't go back to yesterday because I was a different person then."
    - White Queen, Alice through the Looking-Glass

  8. #23
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belthasar
    Oh yeah.. content wise.. um.. why is that clause there anyway? Tell him to come back next year. Otherwise, why have it U2150 at all?
    Already answered that in my post #15.

  9. #24
    CC Grandmaster Alan Shore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    Already answered that in my post #15.
    Doesn't glicko implementation remedy that? What year was the clause put in?
    "I can't go back to yesterday because I was a different person then."
    - White Queen, Alice through the Looking-Glass

  10. #25
    CC Grandmaster Garvinator's Avatar
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    Does the 2150 rating cutoff actually mean anything in real terms. Has a player even been refused entry for being 2149 or so?

  11. #26
    Account Suspended jenni's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by four four two
    I am interested to know if Ronald Yu,Vincent Suttor,James Obst,Michael Wei,Junta Ikeda ,Kevin O'Chee and Peter Jovanovic will also be eligible under this by law to play in the Australian championship?

    If they are and successfully apply wont this have a major impact on the Australian junior championship?
    Vincent has entered the Juniors, so that only leaves Ronald and James ....

  12. #27
    CC FIDE Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by ggrayggray
    Does the 2150 rating cutoff actually mean anything in real terms. Has a player even been refused entry for being 2149 or so?
    Not that I can recall. In fact one of the traditions of past Australian Championships (70's and 80's) was that the start was delayed while an argument ensued between the state based organisers and the ACF about who should be allowed to play. Often the players concerned were within 50 points of "official" cut-off, and were almsot always let in.

  13. #28
    CC Candidate Master pballard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shaun
    Not that I can recall. In fact one of the traditions of past Australian Championships (70's and 80's) was that the start was delayed while an argument ensued between the state based organisers and the ACF about who should be allowed to play. Often the players concerned were within 50 points of "official" cut-off, and were almsot always let in.
    I assume those bad old days are over and now it's determined beforehand. I can think of two examples from the 80s (I know the names but not the years) of people who turned up expecting to play, only to find they were denied entry to the championship.
    http://www.peterballard.org

  14. #29
    CC International Master four four two's Avatar
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    There were a few in the 90's as well. Hacche being one of them.

  15. #30
    Account Permanently Banned firegoat7's Avatar
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    Hello,

    Just for arguements sake...what is the source of your information, Jenni? Do you know the date when this information was made available.

    Quote Originally Posted by jenni
    This is the full text of Bylaw 1

    "BY-LAW NO.1

    Australian Chess Championship & Australian Major

    1. Any other by-law which purports to apply to the Australian Chess Championship
    and the Australian Major shall be valid, but any section which is directly or
    indirectly inconsistent with this by-law shall, in its application to the
    Australian Chess Championship and the Australian Major, have no effect.

    Australian Chess Championship

    2. General Qualifications. An Australian citizen or a person with permanent
    resident status under the Migration Act 1958 (Cwth) who -
    a. has an ACF rating, whether provisional or not, on the list current at
    the close of entries of at least 2150; or
    b. is deemed by the ACF Council to be of an equivalent level of proficiency
    is entitled to play in the Australian Chess Championship.

    3. Special Qualifications. A person who is not entitled to play in the
    Australian Chess Championship under By-law No.1.2 is entitled to play in the
    Australian Chess Championship if the person is -
    a. the current Australian Champion;
    b. the current or immediately previous Australian Junior Champion;
    c. the current or immediately previous Australian Women?s Champion;
    d. the winner of the previous Australian Major;
    e. one person nominated by each State Chess Association, who is, in the
    opinion of the ACF Council, ordinarily resident in that State, if that State
    would not otherwise have a person in the Australian Chess Championship.
    f. a current Champion of a State or Territory that
    has an Association which is affiliated with the ACF;
    g. a junior (according to FIDE definition) who is improving and is deemed by
    the ACF Council to be of sufficient standard;

    h. (i) a person, not being an Australian citizen or a person with permanent
    resident status under the Migration Act 1958 (Cwth), who has a rating of at
    least 2250 on the most recent FIDE rating list and who has played at least
    20 ACF-rated games in the two years before entries close for the Australian
    Championship; or

    (ii) a New Zealand citizen or permanent resident who has a rating of at
    least 2250 on the most recent FIDE rating list;
    provided that the total number of players under this paragraph is not to
    exceed four, being the four highest FIDE rated entrants.

    4. The ACF Council may decide that a person, who is otherwise eligible under
    paragraph h of By-law No.1.3., is ineligible to play in the Australian Chess
    Championship on the ground that their FIDE rating materially overstates
    their present level of proficiency.

    Notwithstanding the provisions of paragraph 3, a person who is a State or
    Territory champion in the year 2000 shall be eligible to play in the 2002
    Australian Championship"

    5. The ACF Council may, in exceptional circumstances, invite one otherwise
    ineligible player to compete in the Australian Chess Championship.


    6. The Australian Chess Championship shall be a swiss or (double) round-robin
    tournament of at least 11, but no more than 18 rounds.

    Australian Major

    7. The Australian Major shall be open to all persons who have a current ACF
    rating of less than 2150. The Australian Major shall also be open to unrated
    players who are deemed to be of a playing strength less than 2150 ACF, and who
    are not eligible for the Australian Chess Championship through the provisions in
    Section 2.

    8. The Australian Major shall be a swiss or round-robin tournament of at least
    11, but no more than 18 rounds.

    Minor Tournament

    9. State Associations or Territory Associations conducting the Australian
    Championships on behalf of the ACF are strongly encouraged, but not compelled,
    to hold a minor tournament in conjunction with the Championships. An example of
    an appropriate minor tournament would be Under 1600."

    As can be seen juniors come under 3g and thre are no limits on numbers. Any junior admitted under 3 g does not affect conditions referred to by Kevin, which are 3h and 5.
    Anyway the laws I have highlighted in red need some dating. When were they introduced as official ACF policy? Does the ACF have minutes that prove the historical accuracy of such laws?

    The laws in green are very strange....they seem to contradict old laws and look like nothing more then suspicious power abuses. In fact, notice how one of theose laws would probably favour a current selector. Does this mean that Bonham will stand down due to a "conflict of interests"?

    cheers Fg7

    P.S These laws are very different from previous laws concerning selection for the ACF Championship. Does anybody have a handy copy of the old laws? I know there are some at the club but I can't be bothered going through the paperwork.

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