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  1. #16
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    wariness of handicap chess

    If I were there in Tasmania I would absloutely smash anyone on thses forums with those odds; there is no way I am approx 1300. so I should get about 4 pawns to a queen against certain people. That is ludicrous. I should have no more odds than a pawn against anybody.

    But I wouldn't turn up to do so. I would feel patronized and insulted by the exercise. It just seems to say to the lower ranked player: you are such a poor, incompetent little bastard that you need all these pawns.

    Kevin, that's how such an event would feel for me if Elwood put it on here in Vic. I just think that odds events enter very dangerous territory in respect to a player's ego, pride and feelings.

  2. #17
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qpawn
    If I were there in Tasmania I would absloutely smash anyone on thses forums with those odds; there is no way I am approx 1300. so I should get about 4 pawns to a queen against certain people. That is ludicrous. I should have no more odds than a pawn against anybody.
    If we ever meet I shall be more than happy to play you some blitz games at pawn odds so we can test that theory.

    But I wouldn't turn up to do so. I would feel patronized and insulted by the exercise. It just seems to say to the lower ranked player: you are such a poor, incompetent little bastard that you need all these pawns.

    Kevin, that's how such an event would feel for me if Elwood put it on here in Vic. I just think that odds events enter very dangerous territory in respect to a player's ego, pride and feelings.
    It was a novelty blitz event intended for fun purposes only and we made it quite clear that the odds of a pawn per hundred points were not meant to be an accurate indication of playing ability. Indeed we thought the odds would favour the weaker players and be too difficult for the strong players, yet the strong players generally did well.

    We have also tried time handicaps in the past. Even when you think you have handicapped the strong player out of it the strong players still win.

  3. #18
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    I would prefer time.

    I would prefer the handicap to be one of time. Even though that gives me, as the weaker player, less chance of winning according to you.

    Look. I am no odds player of any experience. But there is one golden rule to the person receiving the odds of some booty. That is: give some of the booty back at some point to clarify the position. If the person with the booty tries to hang onto the lot of it then the stronger player, more often than not, wins out.

    And yes, Kevin, if we ever met in Tasmania I would accept your challenge!!

    But I would perefr to play you on even terms even though you would probably beat me then. At least then I could learn something. I remember Capabalnca oncesaying that to be a good player one has to lose 1000s of games. Of course he never had to suffer such indignities the little mongrel

  4. #19
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    At our clube we have a handicap tournament where each game is worth 60 points and the point destribution is determined bythe result and the rating difference of the two players. For example if two equally rated players draw, they get 30 points each. If one wins she gets 45 points and her opponent receives 15 points. In the case of highly disparate ratings (>460 rating points) if the higher rated player wins he get 31 points and the lower rated player gets 29.

    I don't mind this format. For a full table of the point allocation see...

    http://home.swiftdsl.com.au/~mazzier...ngHandicap.htm

    The issues with the tournament are:

    - it is technicaly possible for a high rated player to win all their games and not win the tournament although in 6 years this has not happened in our club

    - forfeits need special cnosideration. We allocate the points that would normally have been given for a win up to a maximum of 45. The forfeiter receives 0 points.

    - I believe that we have too many rounds scheduled for this event. We generally get 14-18 players and it is run as a 9 round swiss. I believe this is not ideal and we should only run it as a 7 round event. However, the tournament organiser is unconvinced by my arguments.

    Anyway it is an interesting format which people might like to try. As they are not odds games they are played under full time controls and ratable.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  5. #20
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    I have to say that I personally have a distaste for material odds games in general, habitually refuse to play them when asked to socially, and think they are best confined to fun muckabout tournaments of the sort referred to. Quite simply they are not real chess, and yes, you learn more from the real thing. However I'm happy playing time odds casually and like to give people the challenge of trying to beat me with (as much time as they like) vs my 2 or 3 or 5 minutes depending on how good they are.

  6. #21
    Account Permanently Banned PHAT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    Anyway it is an interesting format which people might like to try. As they are not odds games they are played under full time controls and ratable.
    One other thing. The low rated players can win the tournament with 3/9. It seems that the lower a player's rating, the harder they play in these games. They become truly dangerous, with a ferocious intent. This becomes balanced against a morbid fear that the high rated players have when only one or two losses can see them finish ignominously at the bottom of the table.

    (I will have to analyse past year's results, for a trend.)

  7. #22
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    Other notable events have included Noel O'Mara (1217) scoring an upset win over Martin Line (1696)
    No they haven't - that was an incorrectly recorded result.

    Line beat Frame tonight (Line was a pawn down but had a pawn lodged on the 7th rank that I assume was more than worth it) and the current leaders are Michael Saunders and Kevin Bonham 4/4, Nigel Frame 4/5, Martin Line 2/2.

    Junior club tournament (rapid G20) has 12 entries.

  8. #23
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Saunders - Frame was drawn tonight so Bonham 5/5 leads Saunders 5.5/6 Frame 5.5/7 Martin 5/7 and Line 2/3.

    Frame missed a few wins and ultimately blundered a bishop while trying to win a drawn ending. Although Saunders had a clearly won game at this point, with little more than a minute on his clock and queens still on the board he was unable to win and Frame was able to force a perpetual check.

    In the junior event Max Rintoul 3/3 leads Jamie Briant, Harry Briant and Owen Short all 3/4. Max recently had some good wins for the state in the inaugural internet junior teams event.

  9. #24
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Now looking very much like a race in two with Bonham 7/7 Saunders 5.5/6. Saunders has actually won two more games since my last post but two of his defeated opponents have been scratched for nonattendance so his score has stayed the same. The field is now 15 and hopefully all or nearly all will finish.

    Frame (+5=1-2) is probably out of contention after losing to Ivkovic last night. (Ivkovic responded incorrectly to an unsound desperado knight sac from Frame but a later error by Frame left Ivkovic to mop up with a queen and knight and pawns against two rooks and pawns. Queen and knight can be very effective in such positions.)

    Nobody else has a net score balance better than +1.

  10. #25
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    The attrition rate at the top is high. Bonham now leads with 9/9 from Henry Sheerwater (UNR) 5.5/7, Saunders 7.5/10, Line 5/8, Midson and Frame 5.5/9.

    Couple of big upsets tonight with Graham Richards winning a piece off Line in the first ten moves, of all things, a French Exchange, while Midson beat Frame despite missing the sandshoe crusher in this position:

    FEN Viewer


    Frame (black) has just played Rd6-f6. Midson (white) played Rxf6, then swapped queens and won the ending because his knight proved superior to Frame's bishop. If only he had seen Qe6+!! winning a rook.

    The junior club is going well and this weekend four of its players play their first rated games in the Tasmanian Open. Jamie Briant 7.5/9 leads the junior club event from Owen Short 6/8 with Megan Briant 4/6 and Harry Briant 5/8 also doing well.

  11. #26
    CC Grandmaster Basil's Avatar
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    Qe6 - noice!

    But can we talk about knights being better than bishops? - oh that's the Tromp thread, sorry
    There is no cure for leftism. Its infestation of the host mostly diminishes with age except in the most rabid of specimens.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by qpawn
    If I were there in Tasmania I would absloutely smash anyone on thses forums with those odds; there is no way I am approx 1300. so I should get about 4 pawns to a queen against certain people. That is ludicrous. I should have no more odds than a pawn against anybody.
    At the time of the following odds game, which I won, my opponent Bob Currie had a Chess Federation of Canada rating of 1405. His rating rose to 1538 within 7 months of this game, so I don't think he was grossly over-rated. Admittedly, he crushed me 4-0 in the other four games of this Queen odds match. However, my active rating is only 1927, so 20% is more than would be expected from the 100 rating points per pawn adjustment that ICC once made. (Note that this game has a G/30 time control. When ICC allowed rated Queen odds games with the +900 rating point adjustment for the opponent of the odds giver, I was able to obtain the highest wild rating on the server by playing fast Queen odds games).

    [Event "FICS unrated odds/queen game"]
    [Site "FICS, San Jose, California USA"]
    [Date "2000.06.11"]
    [Time "16:00:19"]
    [Round "-"]
    [White "xanda"]
    [Black "bowinkle"]
    [WhiteElo "-"]
    [BlackElo "-"]
    [TimeControl "1800+0"]
    [FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNB1KBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
    [Mode "ICS"]
    [Result "1-0"]

    1. e4 e5 2. f4 Bc5 3. Nf3 d6 4. h3 Nf6 5. Nc3 Nc6 6. Bb5 a6 7. Bxc6+ bxc6
    8. d3 Bb4 9. O-O Bxc3 10. bxc3 exf4 11. Bxf4 O-O 12. Bg5 h6 13. Bh4 Be6
    14. Rf2 g5 15. Nxg5 hxg5 16. Bxg5 Kg7 17. Raf1 Qd7 18. Bxf6+ Kh7 19. Rf4
    Kg6 20. R1f3 Rab8 21. Rg3+ Bg4 22. Rgxg4+ Qxg4 23. hxg4 Rb2 24. g5 Rbb8
    25. Rh4 Rh8 26. Rxh8 Rxh8 27. Bxh8 Kxg5 28. e5 Kf5 29. exd6 cxd6 30. Kf2
    Kf4 31. Bf6 Kf5 32. Be7 d5 33. Ke3 Ke5 34. g4 Ke6 35. Bf8 f6 36. Kd4 Kf7
    37. Bd6
    {Black resigns} 1-0

    PGN Viewer
     

    I also won a game after losing a queen and a pawn for a bishop in the 1988 Bendigo Club Championship (where I scored 10/11, ahead of multiple champion Leigh Healey, but behind Peter Frost).

    Anyway, anyone below 2100 (at least) who doesn't realise that there are multiple blunders in most of their games should have a better look at them.

    --
    Alex Davies, Ottawa

    P.S. Recently, I have been forced to consume Marmite instead of Vegemite, so I apologise for any strange effects this may be causing.

  13. #28
    CC International Master ElevatorEscapee's Avatar
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    At the Bendigo Club (G'day Alex!) we have a novelty 'piece handicap' lightning about once a year.

    Players are given a ranking based on their current rating, and also from performances in previous 'piece handicap' events.

    This means that if someone wins the tournaments being given pawn odds by the top seed, he will likely find himself having even odds against that player next year; and also giving greater odds to, or receiving lesser odds from players he had beaten the previous year.

    We run a similar system with the once a year 'time handicap lightning' event.

    Both of these are novelty events designed to break up the strenous rigours of tournaments with more fun play, (and these events also give the guys who have copped a hiding in the more serious games a more than even chance to get their own back!)

    All I can say is that fun seems to be had by all who participate... and from my perspective, those who don't want to participate just miss out on a lot of fun.

    PS: Alex, Marmite is ok, just don't try Promite! YUCK!!!!

    PPS: This is my 666th post on the 6th day of the 6th Month of the year of our Lord 2006.
    ~EE 06/06/06
    Last edited by ElevatorEscapee; 06-06-2006 at 11:07 PM.
    "On my chess set, all the pawns are Hamburglers" ~ Homer Simpson.

  14. #29
    CC Grandmaster Basil's Avatar
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    Marmite - yum
    Vegemite - yum
    Promite - yum
    There is no cure for leftism. Its infestation of the host mostly diminishes with age except in the most rabid of specimens.

  15. #30
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Club Champs is almost over now with most players now turning their attention to the G60 event. Bonham 11.5/12 needs half a point from two games for a guaranteed outright first. Saunders 10.5/13 is overwhelmingly likely to win his last game (either by forfeit or OTB) and come second - an excellent result that should see his rating increase dramatically when results are processed in the end of year list. Line 11/14 has finished the event and has a guaranteed podium position.

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