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  1. #1
    CC Candidate Master
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    Oh, come on now, Mr. Pykey. You cannot seriously believe in your ridiculous analogy that you made up about chess players and doctors. What are you ggraggray? Let me repeat: chess player at 23 is over the hill, while doctor is clearly not. Do you really disagree with that?

    And I am all for chess coaching. However, let's be clear: coaching is when Rogers coaches Song, Johansen coaches Chow, etc. On the other hand when someone is talking to the group of kids who wouldn't know the difference between Johansen or, say, Pyke, or even Sweeney, than its not chess coaching. Do you really disagree with that?

    And as for your sarcastic note about your shattered ego - you are the one who thinks that you are worth only $300-400-500 or whatever crap money you are getting; I, on the other hand, pointed out that you could try and get a real job as you have sufficient education/ skills to do so. Do you really disagree with that? And this is where Sandler quote comes in.
    Last edited by DoroPhil; 22-09-2005 at 04:32 PM.

  2. #2
    Account Shoutbox Banned antichrist's Avatar
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    DoroPhil, I salute you, you upset Macavity so much in his post 123 that he forgot to bless you - I hope you don't feel neglected.

  3. #3
    CC Grandmaster arosar's Avatar
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    I must admit, I'm leaning towards DP's view on these pretend. coaches.

    Hey, A/C, aren't you a pretend coach yourself?

    AR

  4. #4
    Account Shoutbox Banned antichrist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arosar
    I must admit, I'm leaning towards DP's view on these pretend. coaches.

    Hey, A/C, aren't you a pretend coach yourself?

    AR
    I am not speaking to you until you say "thanks" for lyrics to "no third prize".

    Aren't we just slightly off topic?
    Last edited by antichrist; 22-09-2005 at 08:09 PM.

  5. #5
    CC Grandmaster Spiny Norman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arosar
    I must admit, I'm leaning towards DP's view on these pretend. coaches.
    Anyone who thinks there's only one (or two, or three) kinds of coaches seriously misunderstands coaching. Where young kids are involved, you feed them on a light diet and see which ones have talent, separate them out, feed them on a bit of real "food", repeat process. It takes just as much talent to do the first job as to coach one-on-one ... not necessarily "chess talent", but talent nonetheless. AR, your comment above about "pretend coaches" sucks. Go quote that in your blog. Feel free to put my real name to the quote.
    “As you perhaps know, I haven't always been a Christian. I didn't go to religion to make me happy. I always knew a bottle of port would do that. If you want a religion to make you feel really comfortable, I certainly don't recommend Christianity.” -- C.S.Lewis

  6. #6
    Account Suspended Libby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frosty
    Anyone who thinks there's only one (or two, or three) kinds of coaches seriously misunderstands coaching. Where young kids are involved, you feed them on a light diet and see which ones have talent, separate them out, feed them on a bit of real "food", repeat process. It takes just as much talent to do the first job as to coach one-on-one ... not necessarily "chess talent", but talent nonetheless. AR, your comment above about "pretend coaches" sucks. Go quote that in your blog. Feel free to put my real name to the quote.
    on behalf of the many "pretend" coaches in the ACT.

    Honestly - not every kid who tries tennis ends up with Tony Roche. Different types of coaches nurture players at different points of their playing career in any sport.

    Some (like me, the very, very pretend chess coach) are introducing the game to children at school and hoping to inspire the interest & excitement to see them take the next step. In Canberra, the next step is mostly to junior clubs where I believe we have excellent young coaches who may not have too many titles but actually show interest and relate well to the players in a way that makes them want to continue with chess. As well as building skill, they build confidence, interest and more.

    In fact, their results are so good we can churn out over-rated kids by the dozen. Only problem is, every time these over-rated ACT kids travel they seem to make a ratings killing against fields from other states.

  7. #7
    Account Permanently Banned PHAT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pax
    God forbid that we should ever have any *professional* chess going on in Australia now!
    The word "professional" implies that the person be willing to donate a proportion, 10-20%, their professional time to those who could not ordinarily afford to buy it. A "professional" who cannot do this, is not professional enough at their profession during the paid 80-90%, to be able to afford to do so. A "professional" who will not is psychopathic and should be dunked like a witch.

    To apply to this to Australian chess, I have heard that X, Y and Z are goodies and A, B and C are fully greed driven. How would you go about rewarding X, Y and Z while shunning A, B and C.
    Last edited by PHAT; 24-09-2005 at 03:09 PM.

  8. #8
    CC International Master four four two's Avatar
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    Matt get real, virtually all professional coaches in europe NEVER donate time,they ALWAYS get paid in some form. Thats why its their profession,and not a hobby.

  9. #9
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew Sweeney
    The word "professional" implies that the person be willing to donate a proportion, 10-20%, their professional time to those who could not ordinarily afford to buy it.
    Some professions in some countries have a pro bono tradition. However I've never heard of it being as high as 20% and it certainly isn't implied by the term professional. Off the top of my head I can't think of a profession in Australia in which pro bono is common place, other than as a PR exercise but that really isn't the same thing, is it?
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  10. #10
    Account Permanently Banned PHAT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by four four two
    Matt get real, virtually all professional coaches in europe NEVER donate time,they ALWAYS get paid in some form. Thats why its their profession,and not a hobby.
    No, thats why they are tradesmen on casual negociable wages and not professionals with a social conscience and duty.

  11. #11
    Account Permanently Banned PHAT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    Some professions in some countries have a pro bono tradition. However I've never heard of it being as high as 20% and it certainly isn't implied by the term professional. Off the top of my head I can't think of a profession in Australia in which pro bono is common place, other than as a PR exercise but that really isn't the same thing, is it?
    Members of the bar are expected to do 20% pro bono. Very few do I read somewhere that the average was less then 2% . Lets big it up for the legal eagles, not.

    I know plenty of health professional who wave fees for pensioners of various types. I know accountants, builders, teachers, et cetera who donate their professional skills to charities and needy individuals. This is all pro bono. All these people are exhibiting a professional attitude even though they are not techically "professionals" - ie mebers of a guild that can revoke your license to practise.

    A chess coach who does not donate some of their skills to non-commercial activities is not, in my opinion, a professional. They are mear guns for hire and not worthy of the disciption, Professional.

  12. #12
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew Sweeney
    Members of the bar are expected to do 20% pro bono. Very few do I read somewhere that the average was less then 2% . Lets big it up for the legal eagles, not.

    I know plenty of health professional who wave fees for pensioners of various types. I know accountants, builders, teachers, et cetera who donate their professional skills to charities and needy individuals. This is all pro bono. All these people are exhibiting a professional attitude even though they are not techically "professionals" - ie mebers of a guild that can revoke your license to practise.

    A chess coach who does not donate some of their skills to non-commercial activities is not, in my opinion, a professional. They are mear guns for hire and not worthy of the disciption, Professional.
    I didn't say there weren't some individuals doing volunteer work. What I said was "Off the top of my head I can't think of a profession in Australia in which pro bono is common place". You haven't changed that opinion. (BTW IMHO a GP only collecting the medicare payment and waiving their higher fee is not doing pro bono.) As you point out the law profession is the only case where it really is expected and even then doesn't seem to be all that common place.

    Regardless, pro bono is not a necessary condition for professionalism.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  13. #13
    CC Grandmaster Alan Shore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew Sweeney
    Members of the bar are expected to do 20% pro bono. Very few do I read somewhere that the average was less then 2% . Lets big it up for the legal eagles, not.

    I know plenty of health professional who wave fees for pensioners of various types. I know accountants, builders, teachers, et cetera who donate their professional skills to charities and needy individuals. This is all pro bono. All these people are exhibiting a professional attitude even though they are not techically "professionals" - ie mebers of a guild that can revoke your license to practise.

    A chess coach who does not donate some of their skills to non-commercial activities is not, in my opinion, a professional. They are mear guns for hire and not worthy of the disciption, Professional.
    Yeah, I teach at a school weekly who asked me to make myself available for a few hours to run a school tournament and that's fine - I'd do that for nothing - but would my employer like it? I dunno.. what do you reckon, should I inform my employer about the extra work or just do it myself? I want to do the right thing, but not sure...
    "I can't go back to yesterday because I was a different person then."
    - White Queen, Alice through the Looking-Glass

  14. #14
    Account Permanently Banned PHAT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    Regardless, pro bono is not a necessary condition for professionalism.
    In MY mind it is. It is my FEELING that those who have plenty due to some combination of good fortune and good genes, ought to be generous to their fellow man. This is especially so when it has been education/training at public expense that has lead to a person becoming a professional.

    Not to spread your luck around is ignoble and mean.

    BTW, before anyone says it isn't luck, it can be plain hard work, think about this. The propensity for working hard is a personality trait that is mostly in your genes (luck) and somewhat in your upbringing (luck). Therefore, everything you have, or don't have is a matter of luck.

  15. #15
    Account Permanently Banned PHAT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belthasar
    Yeah, I teach at a school weekly who asked me to make myself available for a few hours to run a school tournament and that's fine - I'd do that for nothing - but would my employer like it? I dunno.. what do you reckon, should I inform my employer about the extra work or just do it myself? I want to do the right thing, but not sure...
    If you are doing it on your employer's time, maybe you should tell him what you want to continue doing, and adjust your wages accordingly. However, if it is in your own time, f... him.

    There is one other concideration. If part of your job is to drum up business, you need to make some effort to get some payment out of your school and if they cannot, then stay with them anyway.

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