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  1. #31
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby
    (A genuine question out of curiosity rather than mischief )
    I don't know if there is any force of law in ACF trying to maintain National or Australian stay out of the title of events regardless of whether those words for a part of a company name or not. What is important is that operator understand what names are and are not considered unacceptable and when someone runs an event with an unacceptable name, that some action be taken.

    In 5-10 years will we be sitting around here argue as to whether ABC's claim to 3 national titles, including a national schools team title is nothing but marketing puff because said title was earned at that event in Melbourne in 2005? Who will know or care about the details then. Someone has a vague recollection that two titles were awarded that year for some reason and ABC does have an official-looking trophy with Australian Champion engraved on it.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  2. #32
    Account Suspended Libby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    In 5-10 years will we be sitting around here argue as to whether ABC's claim to 3 national titles, including a national schools team title is nothing but marketing puff because said title was earned at that event in Melbourne in 2005? Who will know or care about the details then. Someone has a vague recollection that two titles were awarded that year for some reason and ABC does have an official-looking trophy with Australian Champion engraved on it.
    And I would respectfully suggest that "puff" is "puff" and recognised easily by those who do know.

    "Puff" will attract the media.

    Assuming the ACF can keep itself functional (and the website up to date), it should be pretty easy to establish what title is what.

    We have been home to "Australia's Best Chess Coach" in the ACT. I'm sure that attracted a number of people to a bookstore, sold some products and perhaps connected a few new people to the game. I can't begin to understand what independent measures went into determining a right to that claim - maybe it was legitimate As I've said before, we have also had a "National Junior Open" (or Championship or something along those lines). I believe the Australian Juniors still survives - in fact thrives.

    Will people be going from school to school comparing trophies & write-ups in the school newsletter?

    Will Curtin Primary assert themselves as superior to Essex Heights in the (unlikely) event we win in Melbourne? Will anyone credit us as such? Maybe our own misguided Principal in the weekly newsletter because he is excited over a win in the event.

    I'm relatively excited over the fact that ANY interest is currently being expressed here over the ASTC at all. I must have missed where it had any significant interest in the past to the general chess community outside of the children, schools and junior organisations involved.

  3. #33
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby
    And I would respectfully suggest that "puff" is "puff" and recognised easily by those who do know.

    "Puff" will attract the media.

    Assuming the ACF can keep itself functional (and the website up to date), it should be pretty easy to establish what title is what.
    For those sufficiently motivated but the rest will just accept it. Erosion does not change the status quo in any readily apparent way. Slowly, drop by drop, grain by grain.

    Quote Originally Posted by Libby
    I'm relatively excited over the fact that ANY interest is currently being expressed here over the ASTC at all. I must have missed where it had any significant interest in the past to the general chess community outside of the children, schools and junior organisations involved.
    I'm very excited by the prospect of the ASTC.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  4. #34
    Account Suspended Libby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    I'm very excited by the prospect of the ASTC.
    Well, on the grounds of any publicity being good publicity maybe the ASTC will benefit from this volume of interest & discussion as opposed to this volume of interest & discussion

    http://chesschat.org/showthread.php?t=1301

    in 2004.

  5. #35
    Account Suspended jenni's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby
    : As I've said before, we have also had a "National Junior Open" (or Championship or something along those lines). I believe the Australian Juniors still survives - in fact thrives.

    .
    I think it was a National Junior Open - I've just been going through my cupboard trying to find Gareth's trophy, but got bored after about 30. This was a tournament run by Geoff Butler as a private business. It was a terrific tournament, but no-one ever authorised the use of the name and it was only ever a business venture. If it had carried on (it ran for 2 years only) it would have a great addition to the junior calendar.

    No-one at that time (not even Shaun ), put up any protests about it being called a "National" tournament.

  6. #36
    CC International Master four four two's Avatar
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    DC claims that all players playing in this tournament will receive a national rating,is this tournament actually going to be rated by the ACF?

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by four four two
    DC claims that all players playing in this tournament will receive a national rating,is this tournament actually going to be rated by the ACF?
    I'm not sure how you guarantee players get a rating, since it depends on playing a sufficiently number of players who are themeselves rated, and not scoring 0% (or 100%). Unless there is going to be a Chess Kids rating list.

    The format isn't stated so the first of these may at least be feasible, though quoting ratings as an inducement implies that a number of the players are going to be unrated.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    He calls one

    Chess Kids Championship Qualifiers

    The entry rules stipulate the entrants are from the state of Victoria.

    He calls the other

    Chess Kids Championships

    Again the entry rules stipulate the interstate 'qualification' protocol.
    And when the winning team returns to their home State and approaches the media to publicize their win, how does one describe beating all-comers in Australia if not using the words National or All States? You can't say to the journalist....if you want to know who I beat...just read the entry conditions on this flyer.
    Baz, I think the title name has to have at least
    > who is sponsoring the event
    > what game is being played
    > what was the catchment of entrants.

    Doing so will greatly lessen any ambiguity as to the endorsement of the event and further to this the origaniser should be careful as to how these names appear in any media coverage of the event.

    regards starter

  9. #39
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by starter
    And when the winning team returns to their home State and approaches the media to publicize their win, how does one describe beating all-comers in Australia if not using the words National or All States? You can't say to the journalist....if you want to know who I beat...just read the entry conditions on this flyer.
    Baz, I think the title name has to have at least
    > who is sponsoring the event
    > what game is being played
    > what was the catchment of entrants.
    I disagree. Does the Bendigo Bank Elwood Club Championship do that? They have interstate and international entrants. Does the ANU Open? Does the Doeberl Cup?

    I think you are stretching here, Treeeeev.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    I disagree. Does the Bendigo Bank Elwood Club Championship do that? They have interstate and international entrants. Does the ANU Open? Does the Doeberl Cup?

    I think you are stretching here, Treeeeev.
    You may think I am stretching Baz.

    But, it seems to be necessary to be forensic on this one because
    > you are usually not on dubious causes
    > this time you are.

    OK
    Let us take them one at a time.
    BBEClubC (I don't want to write it in full because they are having a terrific tourney and there should be no criticism whatsoever (I visited yesterday for the a.m. round btw.........have to agree with Gary Bekker; they are a remarkably happy and social group down there). Baz....it is not a Club Championship as I understand it.....hence it fails your ambiguity test.
    ANU.........OPEN = catchment, ANU=presume this is the sponsor, chess implied. Passes my triad_test.
    Doeberl Cup.............Baz, really, , when was the last time a micro-junior won this and rushed back to his home-town press and said "photo. me holding the Cup?"
    We were talking names for junior events Baaaazzzz.

    starter

  11. #41
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by starter
    You may think I am stretching Baz.

    But, it seems to be necessary to be forensic on this one because
    > you are usually not on dubious causes
    > this time you are.

    OK
    Let us take them one at a time.
    BBEClubC (I don't want to write it in full because they are having a terrific tourney and there should be no criticism whatsoever (I visited yesterday for the a.m. round btw.........have to agree with Gary Bekker; they are a remarkably happy and social group down there). Baz....it is not a Club Championship as I understand it.....hence it fails your ambiguity test.
    ANU.........OPEN = catchment, ANU=presume this is the sponsor, chess implied. Passes my triad_test.
    Doeberl Cup.............Baz, really, , when was the last time a micro-junior won this and rushed back to his home-town press and said "photo. me holding the Cup?"
    We were talking names for junior events Baaaazzzz.

    starter
    You are still stretching. Many junior events are title events. As Guru lacks the authority to claim a title of any kind they are not comparable. Back to the drawing board for you my friend.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    You are still stretching. Many junior events are title events. As Guru lacks the authority to claim a title of any kind they are not comparable. Back to the drawing board for you my friend.
    Baz, I think the ball is in your court.
    You quoted three senior events to prove a point, when the debate is actually about naming of junior events.
    And you were trying to refute my triad_criteria. Have another turn, if you wish.

    starter

  13. #43
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by starter
    Baz, I think the ball is in your court.
    You quoted three senior events to prove a point, when the debate is actually about naming of junior events.
    And you were trying to refute my triad_criteria. Have another turn, if you wish.
    Starter, you have no point. You asked for titles which I would find as suitible alternatives to the Guru's mischievious titles. I did so. You have no problem with them other than they don't sound good like official junior events. Sorry, mate, but that is the point!!!

    Please come back with something substantional next time.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  14. #44
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    There is a billboard near my home which states:

    VOTED THE #1 "product" STORE IN THE WORLD!*

    (in tiny, tiny print) *by internal staff poll

    I think that is a good one - better get my internal staff survey going.


    "Chess Kids National Schools Championships - voted the #1 most prestigious title event in Australia."

    "Chess Kids Victorian Interschool Championships - voted the "REAL" state championships!"

    "Melbourne Chess Club - voted the building most like a festering tub of regurgitated pig-swill."

    This is going to be great!

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    Starter, you have no point. You asked for titles which I would find as suitible alternatives to the Guru's mischievious titles. I did so. You have no problem with them other than they don't sound good like official junior events. Sorry, mate, but that is the point!!!

    Please come back with something substantional next time.
    Baz

    In this post the GURU is inviting your creativity to get to middle ground on this issue that you have raised. Please consider to put forward suggestions that match the four criteria.
    We may be close to resolving this issue after much forensic.

    regards
    starter

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