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  1. #1
    Account Permanently Banned firegoat7's Avatar
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    A little history from the Mexicans

    Hello Everybody,

    Reading this bulletin board it has become apparent that very few people outside the state of Victoria understand much about the political history between MCC and CV. This is a perfectly understandable scenario that in my opinion is based on two major areas.

    1. Poor Management, namely being CV's seeming disregard for the historical legacy of chess in Victoria.

    2. An unhealthy reliance on the memory and or subjective interpretations of the elite (administrators and players) of Australian chess.

    If we look at the policy of the ACF as an example, we, the chess playing community, can see great strides being achieved through a well maintained website and bulletin board. The ACF website contains significant historical documentation that can only be of benefit to the chess community at large. Everyone involved in this venture should be congratulated on their work and achievement.
    I hope that the ACF is just as prudent with its physical material heritage.

    When we examine CVs track record they fall considerably short of desired standards.

    In 1992 under the Presidency of Mr Depasquale, MCC ended a lease agreement with the then VCA ( IMO a poor decision but that is democracy). The VCA were informed that a new period of negotiation would be entered into with MCC in regards to the storage of VCA materials. By 1998 neither party had reached an amicable position and CV were asked to remove all their equipment from MCC premises. To his credit GW eventually removed most of CV's equipment. Unfortunately the VCA chose not to take all of it's belongings, GW was queried at the time as to what the VCA were doing with these items, the suprising response was that they could be dispensed with. MCC decided to glean Victorian honor boards and trophies, recognising the importance of such historical material. Heaven only knows what happend to CV archives. We proudly display these items at MCC and now regard them as property of the club.

    This scant disregard for historical material does not sit well with MCC, who have a proud tradition of recognising and preserving for future generations our combined chess legacy. Can anybody from Chess Victoria inform us of the current whereabouts of VCA/CV historical items? Are they available on request for the general chess community?

    My second point concerning relations between CV and MCC ought to be clarified.
    Some chess players in Victoria are aware that GW was a former President of MCC. Furthermore, at one stage in the history of Victorian chess there were two full time chess clubs in Victoria. One run by the VCA, the other by MCC. History shows that the VCA run centre flounderd and disbanded. Whilst MCC thrived to become the institution that it is today. Needless to say there appears to be an underlying resentment towards MCCs general success. A resentment that in my opinion stems from an emotion as petty as jealousy.

    When ACF officials and interstate people judge MCC, unfortunately their impressions are often influenced by people who bear historical grievances against the club.This is why the bulletin board is a good avenue of expression. Before this bulletin board for example a former President of the ACF once suggested that MCC sell its premise for the benefit of the Australian Chess Federation. The suggestion being that the proceeds be donated to the ACF, since MCC was being under utilised. Personally, I wonder if such a statement would have been considered without some influence from the CV elite.

    Nevertheless since the bulletin board has arrived MCC has had the opportunity to have their views heard in the Australian political chess arena. Now all clubs in Victoria can represent themselves accurately, without any censorship from CV.

  2. #2
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    Re: A little history from the Mexicans

    Quote Originally Posted by firegoat7
    Hello Everybody,

    Reading this bulletin board it has become apparent that very few people outside the state of Victoria understand much about the political history between MCC and CV. This is a perfectly understandable scenario that in my opinion is based on two major areas.

    1. Poor Management, namely being CV's seeming disregard for the historical legacy of chess in Victoria.
    hi firegoat
    Good to see you back. And with an avatar.

    In toto this is a good post of yours because it advances our understanding of grievances that were only shadowy half-suggestions
    So thank you; we should be able to make progress now that we have defined issues to deal with.

    CV is not alone in having trouble maintaining historical physical artefacts. At Box Hill, we have honour boards that stretch back 50 years but they are not adequately handled in my view. This is primarily due to lack of resource allocation and organisation rather than your word ‘disregard’. You should be a little more tolerant of others who i) don’t own their own premises, ii) are resource poor, iii) and, are struggling to find office-bearers for executive positions let alone archivists.

    Quote Originally Posted by firegoat7

    2. An unhealthy reliance on the memory and or subjective interpretations of the elite (administrators and players) of Australian chess.

    If we look at the policy of the ACF as an example, we, the chess playing community, can see great strides being achieved through a well maintained website and bulletin board. The ACF website contains significant historical documentation that can only be of benefit to the chess community at large. Everyone involved in this venture should be congratulated on their work and achievement.
    I hope that the ACF is just as prudent with its physical material heritage.
    Good point

    Quote Originally Posted by firegoat7

    When we examine CVs track record they fall considerably short of desired standards.

    In 1992 under the Presidency of Mr Depasquale, MCC ended a lease agreement with the then VCA ( IMO a poor decision but that is democracy). The VCA were informed that a new period of negotiation would be entered into with MCC in regards to the storage of VCA materials. By 1998 neither party had reached an amicable position and CV were asked to remove all their equipment from MCC premises. To his credit GW eventually removed most of CV's equipment. Unfortunately the VCA chose not to take all of it's belongings, GW was queried at the time as to what the VCA were doing with these items, the surprising response was that they could be dispensed with. MCC decided to glean Victorian honour boards and trophies, recognising the importance of such historical material. Heaven only knows what happened to CV archives. We proudly display these items at MCC and now regard them as property of the club.

    This scant disregard for historical material does not sit well with MCC, who have a proud tradition of recognising and preserving for future generations our combined chess legacy. Can anybody from Chess Victoria inform us of the current whereabouts of VCA/CV historical items? Are they available on request for the general chess community?
    GW does not post here and therefore his side of the position will be unknown for awhile. Again, you use the word ‘disregard’ whereas the cause may simply be lack of resource for archivist. Can I suggest that MCC send a delegate to the next CV Committee meeting and ask a few questions about archives.

    Quote Originally Posted by firegoat7



    My second point concerning relations between CV and MCC ought to be clarified.
    Some chess players in Victoria are aware that GW was a former President of MCC. Furthermore, at one stage in the history of Victorian chess there were two full time chess clubs in Victoria. One run by the VCA, the other by MCC. History shows that the VCA run centre flounderd and disbanded. Whilst MCC thrived to become the institution that it is today. Needless to say there appears to be an underlying resentment towards MCCs general success. A resentment that in my opinion stems from an emotion as petty as jealousy.
    fg7, this point can’t progressed because all you have done it express an opinion about a person, without giving any examples at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by firegoat7



    When ACF officials and interstate people judge MCC, unfortunately their impressions are often influenced by people who bear historical grievances against the club.
    It is inevitable that if MCC delegates do not attend State and National forums then impressions will be set by other parties. You know the solution firegoat.

    Quote Originally Posted by firegoat7

    This is why the bulletin board is a good avenue of expression.
    Agreed, and it is good also to see AP, WBA and yourself (and SN?) posting regularly.

    Quote Originally Posted by firegoat7

    Before this bulletin board for example a former President of the ACF once suggested that MCC sell its premise for the benefit of the Australian Chess Federation. The suggestion being that the proceeds be donated to the ACF, since MCC was being under utilised. Personally, I wonder if such a statement would have been considered without some influence from the CV elite.
    A cheap surmise. And GW is unlikely to appear to defend.

    Quote Originally Posted by firegoat7



    Nevertheless since the bulletin board has arrived MCC has had the opportunity to have their views heard in the Australian political chess arena. Now all clubs in Victoria can represent themselves accurately, without any censorship from CV.
    Agreed.


    Thus, if I look back at your post and attempt a summary from my point of view, I think you make three points
    1 CV doesn’t have an ARCHIVIST, and has left some goods and chattels with you.
    2 The BB has opened up communications
    3 You have an opinion that GW is jealous of the MCC.
    Hardly hanging offences.



    starter

  3. #3
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    Re: A little history from the Mexicans

    Quote Originally Posted by firegoat7

    When ACF officials and interstate people judge MCC, unfortunately their impressions are often influenced by people who bear historical grievances against the club.This is why the bulletin board is a good avenue of expression. Before this bulletin board for example a former President of the ACF once suggested that MCC sell its premise for the benefit of the Australian Chess Federation. The suggestion being that the proceeds be donated to the ACF, since MCC was being under utilised. Personally, I wonder if such a statement would have been considered without some influence from the CV elite.

    .
    fg#

    arE you for rEal.
    arE you rEally suggEsting that wastEll would givE away victorian monEy to thE rEst of australia.
    that is onE wEaknEss that hE has nEvEr had.


    if you arE thinking of sElling you could always movE to thE burbs at MEntonE.

    8) thE HUNK 8)

  4. #4
    chmod -x /bin/chmod
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    People with multiple BB identities really suck eh?

  5. #5
    Account Permanently Banned firegoat7's Avatar
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    Actually Thunk you have probably been misled by Starters post, who infers that GW is the only CV leader with historical anamosity with MCC. It would be more correct to look at all the leaders still connected with CV since the dispute.

  6. #6
    CC Candidate Master Bob1's Avatar
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    fg7
    thanks for your point of view on things Mexican.
    NSW has a similar problem with historical artifacts - they are currently gathering dust in a cupboard deep within the bowels of the St George Leagues Club. (at least they are safe for the moment)

  7. #7
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    I'm having trouble picturing the time line - when was the shadowy GW President of MCC?

  8. #8
    Account Permanently Banned firegoat7's Avatar
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    Ian Rout wrote:
    I'm having trouble picturing the time line - when was the shadowy GW President of MCC?
    GW was President of MCC in the 70's before he was involved in VCA/CV circles. I am posting from a friends house, so I do not have the actual years on hand. I think GW served a two year term before being ousted. I can give you the exact dates if you want Ian, just not at this particular moment.

    Regards FG7

  9. #9
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    Thanks for that clarification. Probably the exact dates aren't significant, I was just unable to follow where GW fitted into the succession given the names of Chris Depasquale and Justice Brooking (sp?) being already mentioned.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by firegoat7
    ..................misled by Starters post, who infers that GW is the only CV leader with historical anamosity with MCC. It would be more correct to look at all the leaders still connected with CV since the dispute.
    hi firegoat

    starter here. Have I mis-summarised your list of GW sins? If he was not the one who wanted to give away the MCC funds to a queenslander (for the rest of Australia to use) then that exonerates him from that shadow.

    That leaves GW only blamed for leaving boxes in your back-room and not having an archivist. Even less of a hanging offence.

    Why then does WBA want him to resign as President?

    starter

  11. #11
    Account Permanently Banned firegoat7's Avatar
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    Just for the record GW was president of MCC in 77 and 78. Mr Justice Brooking became President in 1982. Mr E.Malitis was a chess administrator of MCC for 48 years, winning the MCC Championship in 1969. MR R.Jamieson never won a MCC championship or Victorian championship. In fact according to one club wag " In thirty years we only saw Jammo a handful of times."

    So in response Starter may I offer you this suggestion....

    Instead of hassling the current MCC committee about joining CV try a different line of reasoning.

    Why don't you approach two of the greatest administrators ever in chess circles, namely Malitis or Brooking and ask them to volunteer

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by firegoat7

    Starter may I offer you this suggestion....

    Instead of hassling the current MCC committee about joining CV try a different line of reasoning.

    Why don't you approach two of the greatest administrators ever in chess circles, namely Malitis or Brooking and ask them to volunteer
    firegoat

    I appreciate the shift in your stance where you now appear to accept some responsibility to have some MCC delegates involved in CV affairs. This is a step forward from the WBA stance and the MCC stance (of November 2003) of no-involvement. This is goodness and a positive step.

    It is also a good idea of yours to recommend gentlemen who have a long and successful track record at the MCC (by accounts that you and WBA have given). These two gentlemen are well able to decide if they want to extend their long careers. They are no shrinking violets that need to be cajoled into volunteering.

    And, to be honest, I don't think I should be influencing who the MCC authorises as their delegates. If you think it is a good representation for the MCC, talk to them; you are the VP.

    starter

  13. #13
    CC Candidate Master WBA's Avatar
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    correct me if i am wrong but I think you are not totally grasping FG's comments. I believe Fg is suggesting that there are retired members of MCC who you may want to approach to stand on the VCA committee. These people (should you be able to entice them), would not be standing as MCC members, but as independants, as anyone on CV should be.

    My no involvements policy is well explained, so I will not rant on about it again at the moment. I think you may find that MCC are very unlikely to send official felegates at the moment as has already been expressed, If the state of CV remains the same, you could reasonably confidently suggest MCC will maintain it;s stance, of Business dealings only, and no input into administration.

  14. #14
    CC Candidate Master WBA's Avatar
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    firegoat7 wrote:
    ..................misled by Starters post, who infers that GW is the only CV leader with historical anamosity with MCC. It would be more correct to look at all the leaders still connected with CV since the dispute.

    hi firegoat

    starter here. Have I mis-summarised your list of GW sins? If he was not the one who wanted to give away the MCC funds to a queenslander (for the rest of Australia to use) then that exonerates him from that shadow.

    That leaves GW only blamed for leaving boxes in your back-room and not having an archivist. Even less of a hanging offence.

    Why then does WBA want him to resign as President?

    starter

    Starter

    Why are you trying to overly simply matters? FG7 has rasied some valid matters, and these are only small reflections of an overall problem. Take a look at the issue with the honour boards for example. MCC is a proud historical club which recognises and values its place in history, when dealing with any organisation offering services the MCC should weigh up a - whether or not to have dealings wth them at all
    b - To what extent they should have dealings shoudl they choose to have any

    When weighing up their involvment MCC should consider, how important is the service, what is the level of professionalism and competancy within the organisation, and how responsible the organisation is, among many other points. By disregarding important Victorian Chess History, the VCA looked both incompetant and irresponsible. I would suggest the CV has more of a moral responiosibility to maintain records etc, than individual clubs as they are teh state governing bosy represnting all CV clubs.

    As for why I want Wastell to resign? For me it is not personal, I have outlined issues in previous posts.

  15. #15
    Illuminati Bill Gletsos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by firegoat7
    Just for the record GW was president of MCC in 77 and 78. Mr Justice Brooking became President in 1982. Mr E.Malitis was a chess administrator of MCC for 48 years, winning the MCC Championship in 1969. MR R.Jamieson never won a MCC championship or Victorian championship. In fact according to one club wag " In thirty years we only saw Jammo a handful of times."
    Whats Jammo's not winning of the MCC or Vic champs and Maltis's winning of the MCC chanpionship got to do with anything.
    In fact having won the Aust Champs in 1974 and 1978 and the Aust Open in 1981 why would he even worry about whether he won or not a Club or State championship.
    As for E. Maltis I notice he never won an Aust Championship.

    You really are a goat.

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