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  1. #1
    Account Permanently Banned firegoat7's Avatar
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    On what side do you butter your bread?

    Hello everyone,

    Speaking of spam, whats the consensus on this propaganda?

    Dear Chess Club Secretary,



    Over the past 10 years Chess World has been striving to develop chess at the grass-roots level. Last year for the first time we achieved our goal of more than 5000 students participating in a Chess Tournament. We are still working towards our goal of 100,000 chess playing students in Melbourne.



    With this tournament goal achieved our next step is to develop these players’ skills and move towards seeing the next Australian IM or GM emerge. Chess clubs around Victoria will play an important role in developing skills by offering a social & competitive environment for these youngsters to hone their skills against players of all ages. Not only that, but having youngsters at a club gives it an active and vibrant feel and promotes further growth in adults (look at the Box Hill Chess club’s junior successes).



    To further to goal of getting these young chess-players active within clubs and Open tournaments I present here a great opportunity for your club to become involved. This is an opportunity to showcase your chess club to potential new members and hopefully continue to increase your membership. Please let me explain:



    Chess Kids runs a series of interschool chess events across Victoria and invites the top 10% of participants to be part of a program called “Chess Kids Elite”. We are offering your club the opportunity to host an “Elite Training Day”; get the best tournament players to see your club and hopefully make the transition to joining an easier one.



    Your club would be required to provide:

    - Space for 6 coaching groups (max. 8 per group) running simultaneously (10.00am – 12.30pm)

    - Space for 48 children to play chess (1.00pm – 5.00pm)

    - A club member to supervise the venue requirements

    - Promotional material for your club



    You might also like to provide:

    - Tea/coffee facilities for parents and coaches (free or at a small cost)

    - Snacks or morning & afternoon tea for students (free)

    - A prize (or prizes) of FREE club membership for one lucky participant

    - Anything else that might make the participants feel more welcome and enjoy their day



    Chess Kids will provide

    - All equipment: sets, boards, scoresheets and clocks

    - All coaches (of the highest standard – such as IM Sandler, IM Smerdon, FM Depasquale, FM Saw, Zaprudsky, Bourmistrov, Meerbach etc)

    - All supervision of students and administration of the day

    - Prizes for participants



    The format of the day is as follows:

    9.00am – 9.30am Setup

    10.00am – 12.30pm Coaching sessions

    1.00pm – 5.00pm 4 x 30 minute recorded games



    Statistics

    During the 2 months of February and March Chess Kids ran 14 one-day events with a total of 839 players from 74 schools across Melbourne.



    Approximately 80 invitations were presented to players offering a place in the April 3 Elite Day. We received 53 responses, with 44 attending on Sunday April 3; most traveling for at least 30 minutes to get to the program venue.



    In the next 3 months we are planning to run about 35 one-day events and expect over 2000 players. This gives us the realistic expectation to run 2 Elite days with about 50 players attending each.



    When does this happen?

    We have 6 more training days scheduled this year and would be happy to book a club in for a maximum of 2 days. First in best dressed. You may choose a Saturday OR Sunday (not both) of the following dates:

    May 7 or 8

    June 18 or 19

    August 6 or 7

    September 17 or 18

    October 29 or 30

    December 9 or 10



    Ideally we would have each club host just one day, but we are open to suggestions.



    If your club has any questions, suggestions or interest in hosting, please contact me by phone or email ASAP to discuss the finer details and confirm a suitable date.



    Many thanks and looking helping your club grow over the next few years,






    David Cordover

    Chess Kids




    My question is "Would you read this marketing as a positive or a negative for Victorian Chess?"

    My second question is "What are the implications of Mr Cordovers claims for the ACF, are they a positive or a negative?"

    Cheers Fg7

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by firegoat7
    Hello everyone,

    Speaking of spam, whats the consensus on this propaganda?

    Dear Chess Club Secretary,



    Over the past 10 years Chess World <snip>


    My question is "Would you read this marketing as a positive or a negative for Victorian Chess?"

    My second question is "What are the implications of Mr Cordovers claims for the ACF, are they a positive or a negative?"

    Cheers Fg7
    fg7

    Personally, I have some problems with this marketing.
    I have referred (yesterday) the mail to our BH President, and would prefer to wait on a Committee discussion before becoming to visible myself.
    Those of us who have to ration volunteer labour need to be careful that it is used correctly.

    starter

  3. #3
    CC Grandmaster
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    If I was making a decision I would like to see evidence that host such a day like Cordover suggests does mean more people joined the club. This is especially since he says in the letter that most of the juniors had to travel at least 30 mins to get to the venue used on April 3rd. It seems that it is unlikely that most juniors would regularly travel more than 30mins to be a regular attendee at a chess club.

    I would also like to see evidence that having more juniors at a club causes an increase in adult participation.

    Scott

  4. #4
    CC Grandmaster Garvinator's Avatar
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    ok here is where we run into trouble. The last posters on here put scorn on David's claims were then subjected to legal intimidation and threats.

    Do we really want to go down that road, especially considering that the guru has shown that legal threats is his first port of call.

  5. #5
    CC Candidate Master pballard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by firegoat7
    Hello everyone,

    Speaking of spam, whats the consensus on this propaganda?
    (huge snip).

    How did it get sent to you? email? private messaging on this board? or some other way?...

    And why is it a concern... Has there been spam discussion here in the past? Does Australia have anti-spam laws? (Feel free direct me to an old thread I might have missed).

    --
    Peter

  6. #6
    CC FIDE Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by firegoat7
    My question is "Would you read this marketing as a positive or a negative for Victorian Chess?"

    My second question is "What are the implications of Mr Cordovers claims for the ACF, are they a positive or a negative?"

    Cheers Fg7
    My coverall (and honest) answer would be:
    If I liked the guy:"Just what Victorian chess needs, and anyone who says different obviously doesn't want chess to succeed in this state"
    If I didn't like the guy, and had to deal with him or the effects of his actions:"More inflated and unsubstantiated hype designed to sabotage the efforts of others in this state"
    If I didn't like the guy but our paths don't cross:"Sort it out amongst yourselves"

  7. #7
    CC Grandmaster arosar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pballard
    Does Australia have anti-spam laws?
    Yes, absobloodylutely. But, of course, whether the message being talked about is spam or not is a different matter altogether.

    AR

  8. #8
    CC International Master
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    Personally I wouldn't consider it spam, but the question that came to mind is that the note seems to assume that clubs have permanent premises. Is that how it typically is in Melbourne (other than MCC which obviously does)?

  9. #9
    CC Candidate Master
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    Dave,

    It's clear that Mr. Cordover is not exactly your (or MCC's) best friend. Could you tell us why?

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by arosar
    Yes, absobloodylutely. But, of course, whether the message being talked about is spam or not is a different matter altogether.

    AR
    My copy came via an e-mail address I have given CG some time back. Whether it was welcome was nicely summed up by Shaun.
    I don't have a problem with receipt of the message.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Rout
    Personally I wouldn't consider it spam, but the question that came to mind is that the note seems to assume that clubs have permanent premises. Is that how it typically is in Melbourne (other than MCC which obviously does)?
    Ian,
    The thought did not strike me when I read it...and not sure where you see it.
    All Melbourne Clubs rent space/rooms/buildings for the weekly events (except MCC which owns their building). It is a significant cost. We rent ours for about 48 weeks of the year (two evenings per week, and 1 Sunday per month, and 3 week-ends per year).
    For special events we would do a deal with a local Council or a local school etc.
    Gazza gets occasional access to a premier area in the Federation Square complex.
    Sometimes a Town Hall is hired.


    starter

  11. #11
    Account Permanently Banned firegoat7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shaun
    If I liked the guy:"Just what Victorian chess needs, and anyone who says different obviously doesn't want chess to succeed in this state"
    If I didn't like the guy, and had to deal with him or the effects of his actions:"More inflated and unsubstantiated hype designed to sabotage the efforts of others in this state"
    If I didn't like the guy but our paths don't cross:"Sort it out amongst yourselves"
    Well I suppose I should offer some feedback.

    To this one I say its not personal, its political. I have enough experience of working with people I don't like for a common good.

    Quote Originally Posted by DoroPhil

    It's clear that Mr. Cordover is not exactly your (or MCC's) best friend. Could you tell us why?
    I have my own personal reasons for not liking Cordover. If we meet in person I could discuss them privately with you Dorophil. As for MCC, Cordover did run a junior program there unsuccessfully, but that is not such a big deal. It is generally more to do with ChessVictoria, Jammo, Depasquale and clear conflicts of interests, its about political agendas.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Rout
    Personally I wouldn't consider it spam, but the question that came to mind is that the note seems to assume that clubs have permanent premises. Is that how it typically is in Melbourne (other than MCC which obviously does)?
    Well I never provided Cordover with my email address, nor do I subscribe to any of his services. I guess he either got it of the web, tournament flyers or from ChessVictoria. It is unsolicited business that is clear, what is not clear is whether its annoying.

    I do agree with your permanent premises analysis, but in fairness its probably designed for activity which must nbe a good thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by pballard

    How did it get sent to you? email?
    He sent it to my email address. I have no problem with this personally,as I am a MCC contact, except I will point out that Cordover would not even consider the ethics involved. Last year he sent a lot of interschool flyers to schools who thought they were playing in interschool, they did, just it was not Victorian interschool. It was Chessworld interschool, by the way he was on the ChessVictoria executive committee at the same time and ChessVictoria still continue to publish his commercial business as if it was a registered club, which it isn't.


    Cheers Fg7

  12. #12
    Account Permanently Banned firegoat7's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=firegoat7]

    Now for my debunk, I will put my responses in bold text

    "Dear Chess Club Secretary" - I have a name,you know what it is, if you wish to send a mass email to me, advertising your business interests, without addressing me personally then you are spamming me.

    "Over the past 10 years Chess World has been striving to develop chess at the grass-roots level. Last year for the first time we achieved our goal of more than 5000 students participating in a Chess Tournament. We are still working towards our goal of 100,000 chess playing students in Melbourne."

    It depends on your definition of chess. While it may be true that 5000 students participated in a chess tournament, it is also true that DC was a ChessVictoria executive, his interschool conflicted with ChessVictorias interschool. The only striving I see is a business one, not that this is bad necessarily.


    "With this tournament goal achieved our next step is to develop these players’ skills and move towards seeing the next Australian IM or GM emerge. Chess clubs around Victoria will play an important role in developing skills by offering a social & competitive environment for these youngsters to hone their skills against players of all ages. Not only that, but having youngsters at a club gives it an active and vibrant feel and promotes further growth in adults (look at the Box Hill Chess club’s junior successes)."

    This seems nice but really is nothing more then fantasy. It is a real enough fantasy but its is debatable wheteher DCs fantasy and Australian chess' fantasy are the same thing. Ask yourself this question-If he was really concerned about getting kids to play in Victorian chess clubs, why has he not attempted to get club feedback on how this should be intergrated in a mutually beneficial way? What do chess clubs operate on, thin air or money? Nor should we ever forget that he never affiliated his own club with ChessVictoria.

    "To further to goal of getting these young chess-players active within clubs and Open tournaments I present here a great opportunity for your club to become involved. This is an opportunity to showcase your chess club to potential new members and hopefully continue to increase your membership. Please let me explain:"

    Marketing hype based on Chinese numbers, it has a name this sort of agenda. It is called "Casino" capitalism, it is a new neo-liberal economic philosophy.



    "Chess Kids runs a series of interschool chess events across Victoria and invites the top 10% of participants to be part of a program called “Chess Kids Elite”. We are offering your club the opportunity to host an “Elite Training Day”; get the best tournament players to see your club and hopefully make the transition to joining an easier one."

    Why don't you just send them to our club, its open, they will learn all about tournament chess there. If you don't like our club send them to Elwood, Box Hill, Croydon. Next comes the reality



    "Your club would be required to provide:

    - Space for 6 coaching groups (max. 8 per group) running simultaneously (10.00am – 12.30pm)

    - Space for 48 children to play chess (1.00pm – 5.00pm)

    - A club member to supervise the venue requirements

    - Promotional material for your club



    You might also like to provide:

    - Tea/coffee facilities for parents and coaches (free or at a small cost)

    - Snacks or morning & afternoon tea for students (free)

    - A prize (or prizes) of FREE club membership for one lucky participant

    - Anything else that might make the participants feel more welcome and enjoy their day"

    Free power, Voluneteers to open and close the facilities, expenses including wear and tear, toilet amenities etc


    "Chess Kids will provide

    - All equipment: sets, boards, scoresheets and clocks

    - All coaches (of the highest standard – such as IM Sandler, IM Smerdon, FM Depasquale, FM Saw, Zaprudsky, Bourmistrov, Meerbach etc)

    - All supervision of students and administration of the day

    - Prizes for participants"

    1.Something we don't need ie equipment.
    2. Labour
    3. Supervision
    4. Prizes

    Interesting no money is mentioned, clubs will be the altruistic provider for chess in australia. But let me guess, Chesskid/world/thing is going to do all this for free, just like the clubs eh?



    The format of the day is as follows:

    9.00am – 9.30am Setup

    10.00am – 12.30pm Coaching sessions

    1.00pm – 5.00pm 4 x 30 minute recorded games



    Statistics

    During the 2 months of February and March Chess Kids ran 14 one-day events with a total of 839 players from 74 schools across Melbourne.



    Approximately 80 invitations were presented to players offering a place in the April 3 Elite Day. We received 53 responses, with 44 attending on Sunday April 3; most traveling for at least 30 minutes to get to the program venue.



    In the next 3 months we are planning to run about 35 one-day events and expect over 2000 players. This gives us the realistic expectation to run 2 Elite days with about 50 players attending each.



    When does this happen?

    We have 6 more training days scheduled this year and would be happy to book a club in for a maximum of 2 days. First in best dressed. You may choose a Saturday OR Sunday (not both) of the following dates:

    May 7 or 8

    June 18 or 19

    August 6 or 7

    September 17 or 18

    October 29 or 30

    December 9 or 10


    Many thanks and looking helping your club grow over the next few years,"

    What a strategy, where do I sign up?

    "David Cordover

    Chess Kids"

    He has a name but I don't,neither does MCC, beautiful ain't it.

  13. #13
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    [QUOTE=firegoat7]
    Quote Originally Posted by firegoat7

    Now for my debunk, I will put my responses in bold text

    "Dear Chess Club Secretary" - I have a name,you know what it is, if you wish to send a mass email to me, advertising your business interests, without addressing me personally then you are spamming me.

    "Over the past 10 years Chess World has been striving to develop chess at the grass-roots level. Last year for the first time we achieved our goal of more than 5000 students participating in a Chess Tournament. We are still working towards our goal of 100,000 chess playing students in Melbourne."

    It depends on your definition of chess. While it may be true that 5000 students participated in a chess tournament, it is also true that DC was a ChessVictoria executive, his interschool conflicted with ChessVictorias interschool. The only striving I see is a business one, not that this is bad necessarily.


    "With this tournament goal achieved our next step is to develop these players’ skills and move towards seeing the next Australian IM or GM emerge. Chess clubs around Victoria will play an important role in developing skills by offering a social & competitive environment for these youngsters to hone their skills against players of all ages. Not only that, but having youngsters at a club gives it an active and vibrant feel and promotes further growth in adults (look at the Box Hill Chess club’s junior successes)."

    This seems nice but really is nothing more then fantasy. It is a real enough fantasy but its is debatable wheteher DCs fantasy and Australian chess' fantasy are the same thing. Ask yourself this question-If he was really concerned about getting kids to play in Victorian chess clubs, why has he not attempted to get club feedback on how this should be intergrated in a mutually beneficial way? What do chess clubs operate on, thin air or money? Nor should we ever forget that he never affiliated his own club with ChessVictoria.

    "To further to goal of getting these young chess-players active within clubs and Open tournaments I present here a great opportunity for your club to become involved. This is an opportunity to showcase your chess club to potential new members and hopefully continue to increase your membership. Please let me explain:"

    Marketing hype based on Chinese numbers, it has a name this sort of agenda. It is called "Casino" capitalism, it is a new neo-liberal economic philosophy.



    "Chess Kids runs a series of interschool chess events across Victoria and invites the top 10% of participants to be part of a program called “Chess Kids Elite”. We are offering your club the opportunity to host an “Elite Training Day”; get the best tournament players to see your club and hopefully make the transition to joining an easier one."

    Why don't you just send them to our club, its open, they will learn all about tournament chess there. If you don't like our club send them to Elwood, Box Hill, Croydon. Next comes the reality



    "Your club would be required to provide:

    - Space for 6 coaching groups (max. 8 per group) running simultaneously (10.00am – 12.30pm)

    - Space for 48 children to play chess (1.00pm – 5.00pm)

    - A club member to supervise the venue requirements

    - Promotional material for your club



    You might also like to provide:

    - Tea/coffee facilities for parents and coaches (free or at a small cost)

    - Snacks or morning & afternoon tea for students (free)

    - A prize (or prizes) of FREE club membership for one lucky participant

    - Anything else that might make the participants feel more welcome and enjoy their day"

    Free power, Voluneteers to open and close the facilities, expenses including wear and tear, toilet amenities etc


    "Chess Kids will provide

    - All equipment: sets, boards, scoresheets and clocks

    - All coaches (of the highest standard – such as IM Sandler, IM Smerdon, FM Depasquale, FM Saw, Zaprudsky, Bourmistrov, Meerbach etc)

    - All supervision of students and administration of the day

    - Prizes for participants"

    1.Something we don't need ie equipment.
    2. Labour
    3. Supervision
    4. Prizes

    Interesting no money is mentioned, clubs will be the altruistic provider for chess in australia. But let me guess, Chesskid/world/thing is going to do all this for free, just like the clubs eh?



    The format of the day is as follows:

    9.00am – 9.30am Setup

    10.00am – 12.30pm Coaching sessions

    1.00pm – 5.00pm 4 x 30 minute recorded games



    Statistics

    During the 2 months of February and March Chess Kids ran 14 one-day events with a total of 839 players from 74 schools across Melbourne.



    Approximately 80 invitations were presented to players offering a place in the April 3 Elite Day. We received 53 responses, with 44 attending on Sunday April 3; most traveling for at least 30 minutes to get to the program venue.



    In the next 3 months we are planning to run about 35 one-day events and expect over 2000 players. This gives us the realistic expectation to run 2 Elite days with about 50 players attending each.



    When does this happen?

    We have 6 more training days scheduled this year and would be happy to book a club in for a maximum of 2 days. First in best dressed. You may choose a Saturday OR Sunday (not both) of the following dates:

    May 7 or 8

    June 18 or 19

    August 6 or 7

    September 17 or 18

    October 29 or 30

    December 9 or 10


    Many thanks and looking helping your club grow over the next few years,"

    What a strategy, where do I sign up?

    "David Cordover

    Chess Kids"

    He has a name but I don't,neither does MCC, beautiful ain't it.
    hi fg7

    Some of your post is good (in my view), and some not so good (or at least I would handle differently).
    In no particular order

    • criticising his style of writing is of no real significance; so let's ignore the lack of salutations.
    • Club feedback would be guarded at best given the past trials and tribulations in Mexico and Mt B. ......Probably it just best for him to make the offer he has made.
    • I think there is a significant point to be made in achieving 'introductions to a Club. Have you ever tried to work through the Victorian Govt schools register and just send a simple e-mail to selected schools. It is a brick wall of hurdles in the way. On the other hand, if the school registrar gives you a contact address, or a list of interested names then the 'contact list' is a valuable commodity.
    • Finally, you hit on the central argument...are the volunteers to paid.....but you shy away from the obvious retort >>> Sure CG, happy to host...our fee is $400 per day payable to the Club.


    regards, and keep posting, somewhere
    starter
    Last edited by ursogr8; 04-04-2005 at 10:38 PM.

  14. #14
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by firegoat7
    Hello everyone,

    Speaking of spam,
    Are we?

    I accept that by making my details available as a chess club secretary I'll get a fair few offers sent to me. It's just an occupational hazard. If they are tournaments for grandmasters in Greece then I may get a little irate at the spammer for not pitching their product more judiciously, but offers like this are par for the course and I don't see why their mass propogation makes them "spam". Just note it as "correspondence" at your next meeting.

    whats the consensus on this propaganda?
    What makes you think there will be a consensus?

    My second question is "What are the implications of Mr Cordovers claims for the ACF, are they a positive or a negative?"
    I don't see any ACF implications whatsoever.

    The terms offered by ChessKids may seem lopsided - basically he is asking for free venues and offering in return the prospect of recruitment. However, he's a businessman, ambit claim offers are common in business and I don't see where in his offer it says that he is not amenable to negotiation.

    It is indeed "political", but what about the chess? I think you're letting your personal opposition to anything you consider to be "capitalism" (as stated on this thread) get in the way of a more rational appraisal of something that seems really quite mundane compared to past ChessKids controversies here.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    <snip>

    I don't see any ACF implications whatsoever.

    <snip>
    hi KB
    Just snipped around your long response to fg7; hope you do not mind.

    No implications for the ACF?

    But don't you (the ACF) levy a charge per participant, or per team, or some_such?
    Who you gunna levy it on? The hosting Club? Or CG's organisation.

    I am aware that there has been much discussion in VIC at which level of the hierarchies does the ACF charge kick in. The GURU seems to have offered a framework that insulates him from the charge; at least at the lowest levels.

    starter

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