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  1. #31
    Account Suspended jenni's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Gletsos
    As far as I am aware no formal bids have been made to the ACF yet for the Australian Championship or the Australian Junior.
    The only known fact is that QLD intend to submit bids for both events.
    However rumour and gossip (which is what the BB deals in), says that the Aus Juniors and Aus Champs will be held together in order to avoid a clash with Queenstown. Probably one on the morning and one late afternoon.

    Is this a good idea? Not sure. I would like to go to Queenstown with my family, as it sounds a good comp and there is no doubt that Queenstown will take away both coaches and juniors. On the other hand combining Champs/Juniors is going to do that anyway. Many of the strong coaches will play the Aus champs and from what I have heard from parents many of them are saying it will be one or the other, they are not going to go to both the Juniors and Queenstown.

  2. #32
    Illuminati Bill Gletsos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenni
    However rumour and gossip (which is what the BB deals in), says that the Aus Juniors and Aus Champs will be held together in order to avoid a clash with Queenstown. Probably one on the morning and one late afternoon.
    Yes, my understanding is that is the QLD plan.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenni
    However rumour and gossip (which is what the BB deals in), says that the Aus Juniors and Aus Champs will be held together in order to avoid a clash with Queenstown. Probably one on the morning and one late afternoon.

    Is this a good idea? Not sure.
    It was done this way in 1995/96 at the University of Technology, Sydney. Great for juniors who have a lot of stamina and want to enter in both events.
    Anyone who was involved with those events, either as an organiser or a player, might be able to elaborate on the pros and cons of this setup.

    Mark
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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenni
    However rumour and gossip (which is what the BB deals in), says that the Aus Juniors and Aus Champs will be held together in order to avoid a clash with Queenstown. Probably one on the morning and one late afternoon.

    Is this a good idea? Not sure.
    I think having the Junior and Championship/Open at the same time is the way to go (and not just for this coming year). From an organisers point of view the entire package is more saleable to sponsors and the expenses are reduced due to economies of scale.
    Obviously junior players who want to play in both events have to make a choice, but that's what growing up is about. For those who think a junior title is the be-all and end-all of chess, then the choice is clear, while those who realise that it is just a stage on a longer path are already smart enough to make the right choice.

  5. #35
    . eclectic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shaun
    For those who think a junior title is the be-all and end-all of chess, then the choice is clear, while those who realise that it is just a stage on a longer path are already smart enough to make the right choice.
    You weren't thinking of anyone in particular?



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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skaro
    You weren't thinking of anyone in particular?



    Mark
    No, although I am aware of some juniors who won the Australian Junior Championship and then dropped out of chess (eg Ron Klinger)

  7. #37
    CC Grandmaster Denis_Jessop's Avatar
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    To end speculation about the 2005/2006 Australian Championships/Juniors, I can say that no formal bid has yet been made for either event. I know that the CAQ intends to bid. I have just sent a note to ACF Councillors again inviting bids - they were first invited in April 2004 (!). A notice to the same effect has also been submitted for publication in next week's ACF Newsletter.

    Denis Jessop
    ACF President

  8. #38
    Account Suspended jenni's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skaro
    It was done this way in 1995/96 at the University of Technology, Sydney. Great for juniors who have a lot of stamina and want to enter in both events.
    Anyone who was involved with those events, either as an organiser or a player, might be able to elaborate on the pros and cons of this setup.

    Mark
    It was the first juniors my kids played at and so we thought it was fine. Having actually experienced other juniors since then, it is now one of the least enjoyable. However the things that made it unenjoyable are not related to the fact that it was run in parallel with the adult tournament.

    I remember Laura Moylan playing in both - she won the Aus girls title that year, although I think her results in the adult tournament were not as good.

    Both tournaments were held in the same playing hall and there was no-where for the kids to play after their games. I think if the juniors is still physically held in a junior friendly environment, then one of my main dislikes of 1996 would be rectified.

    In 1996 coaching was not a major factor. Now it is and I wonder about the impact? It will lead to patchy effects, with some states not being affected at all and possibly others losing a number of their normal coaches.

  9. #39
    Account Suspended jenni's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shaun
    I think having the Junior and Championship/Open at the same time is the way to go (and not just for this coming year). From an organisers point of view the entire package is more saleable to sponsors and the expenses are reduced due to economies of scale.
    Obviously junior players who want to play in both events have to make a choice, but that's what growing up is about. For those who think a junior title is the be-all and end-all of chess, then the choice is clear, while those who realise that it is just a stage on a longer path are already smart enough to make the right choice.
    Oh dear Shaun - your junior dislikes are showing......

    Of course it is just a stage, but why should kids have to make that choice - they grow up rapidly enough as it is. Do we want to encourage them to become mini-adults even sooner?

    Being part of an Aus juniors, the social networks, the fun, the friendships are much more what it is about. Of the 170 who played in Mt Buller only a tiny number were there chasing a title. The rest were there to be part of a major junior event. Our aim should be to encourage the 18 year olds to come to the adult tournament, or to encourage the elite players to play both, by having them consecutive. Not to destroy the Aus Juniors by always running them together and then denigrating the kids who choose the juniors over the adults.

    It is all about creating migration paths - not something that seems to have a lot of attention paid to it. Perhaps there should be an active targetting of kids turning 18, who have been regulars at the Aus Juniors. I was talking to Phachara Wongwichit in Perht last year and said I assumed he would be goign to the Aus open, as he was graduating form junior ranks. He said categorically that he didn't think he would do something like that - I got the impression he didn't think it was something he would enjoy. I was delighted to see that he did indeed play.

    The junior organisations have no trouble finding volunteers and money to run the Aus Juniors. Seems to me that the ones to benefit out of permanently combining them, would be the adults who seem to continually struggle to find people to run their flagship events.
    Last edited by jenni; 26-01-2005 at 04:09 PM.

  10. #40
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    I can see a case for a concurrent Juniors and Australian Championship in the year of a closed championship, since only a couple of juniors would qualify for the Championship and quite possibly some or all would not have played in both anyway. As Shaun said juniors at the level of playing for the full Championship may well have moved on from junior titles, in the same way that many top teenage GMs don't contest the World Junior.

    However when it's an Open I would like to think that both an Australian Opoen and an Australian Junior are sufficiently attractive to be sustainable in their own right without making players choose. In particular those rising stars who are good enough to benefit from playing in the Open but are not so established as to want to forego junior titles are put in a difficult position.

    Incidentally when is a decision to be announced? - it's not August yet but the clock has ticked down towards the eleventh-month point.

  11. #41
    Illuminati Bill Gletsos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Rout
    Incidentally when is a decision to be announced? - it's not August yet but the clock has ticked down towards the eleventh-month point.
    You cannot make a decision when there are no formal bids.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Gletsos
    You cannot make a decision when there are no formal bids.
    That's a good point.

    Is there a closing date or are bids considered to be open indefinitely until the first one arrives?

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenni
    Oh dear Shaun - your junior dislikes are showing......
    No, just restating a position I have consistently held since I played in my first/only Australian Junior in 1983.


    Of course it is just a stage, but why should kids have to make that choice - they grow up rapidly enough as it is. Do we want to encourage them to become mini-adults even sooner?

    Being part of an Aus juniors, the social networks, the fun, the friendships are much more what it is about. Of the 170 who played in Mt Buller only a tiny number were there chasing a title. The rest were there to be part of a major junior event. Our aim should be to encourage the 18 year olds to come to the adult tournament, or to encourage the elite players to play both, by having them consecutive. Not to destroy the Aus Juniors by always running them together and then denigrating the kids who choose the juniors over the adults.
    I cannot see how the social networks or fun will be anyway lessened by holding the events together. And the only pressure I have seen on juniors is to miss the Oz Open/Champs and play in the Junior instead.


    It is all about creating migration paths - not something that seems to have a lot of attention paid to it. Perhaps there should be an active targetting of kids turning 18, who have been regulars at the Aus Juniors. I was talking to Phachara Wongwichit in Perht last year and said I assumed he would be goign to the Aus open, as he was graduating form junior ranks. He said categorically that he didn't think he would do something like that - I got the impression he didn't think it was something he would enjoy. I was delighted to see that he did indeed play.

    The junior organisations have no trouble finding volunteers and money to run the Aus Juniors. Seems to me that the ones to benefit out of permanently combining them, would be the adults who seem to continually struggle to find people to run their flagship events.
    But this hasn't always been the case. While the Aus Champs has been held every two years since WWII, and the Aus Open in the intervening years since 1971, the Australian Junior wasn't held one year in the late 1980's because no one in Australia would organise it, and the titles were only awarded after the CAQ jumped in and held a reduced event in the August(?) school holidays.

  14. #44
    Illuminati Bill Gletsos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shaun
    But this hasn't always been the case. While the Aus Champs has been held every two years since WWII, and the Aus Open in the intervening years since 1971, the Australian Junior wasn't held one year in the late 1980's because no one in Australia would organise it, and the titles were only awarded after the CAQ jumped in and held a reduced event in the August(?) school holidays.
    The Aus Junior for 1989 was held in Brisbane from June 24 to July 2nd and was won by Peter Cotton.

  15. #45
    Account Suspended jenni's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shaun
    I cannot see how the social networks or fun will be anyway lessened by holding the events together.
    Because ambitious parents/coaches will rather opt for the adult tournament, than the juniors - this is already a trend with more and more kids playing up divisions, even though they haven't already won a title. At the moment they can play both the adult and the juniors. I fear once a choice has to be made, it will be for the adults. You then get a snowball "me too" effect, with more and more kids opting out.

    Eventually the Aus juniors will become a joke tournament and the titles devalued and no doubt at some point, some Einstein will suggest awarding the junior titles out of the Open.

    Also it is hard to find a venue that suits the needs of both - I understand Queensland is looking at venues near parks, so there will be suitable areas for kids to play, but will this always be the case?

    I think much better to leave the juniors in their own environment, with enthusiasts able to play both the adult and the juniors and rather seek better migration paths, so juniors can make a smoother transition from one environment to the other.

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