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  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham View Post
    This R B Ramesh interview is attracting some attention for its comments about specific cases of suspicious moves by Niemann:

    https://scroll.in/field/1033890/inte...ns-claims-more
    I've just been looking at the game Niemann - Aronian.

    Ramesh's comments: "I find in his two games the one against Levon Aronian, where he played Bishop D3, followed by Bishop E2 and then short Castle, followed by G4... all these moves, he played very quickly. They did not look like human moves. I find them very strange."

    I assume Ramesh knows that this is an Allegro tournament. Surely players are allowed to play the opening quickly in Allegro, particularly if they are prepared well enough for the game.

    6. Bd3!? -- probably something Niemann would have had occasion to study, given the number of times he would have reached the position after 5...a6. He's allowed to play it very quickly. If 6...e5 then I guess 7. Nde2 is fine. Unusual, but it seems that all the other players are allowed to play unusual stuff.

    6...g6 -- one of the more common responses. We have a Dragon with Bd3 and a6.

    7. f3 Bg7 -- quite normal. If we assume that Niemann has studied 6. Bd3, then he would still be in book.

    8. Be2!? -- again, something that Niemann would have looked at. The natural contra-Dragon development O-O, Be3, Qd2 is more difficult to achieve with the B on d3. Retreating the bishop to e2 costs a move, but Black's ...a6 is not always logically consistent in the Dragon. For instance, if 8...Nc6 9. Be3 O-O 10. Qd2 Bd7 11. O-O-O Rc8 12. Kb1 Ne5 13. g4, then don't we just have a Yugoslav where Black's earlier ...a6 now seems like a waste of a move? Still, maybe 10...d5 is fine. But there is a bit for Black to think about. 8. Be2 may be a good practical choice for Allegro.

    8...Nbd7 9. O-O b6 10. Be3 Bb7 11. Qd2 Qc7 -- White is just going with the plan. Nothing unusual. Not much thought needed.

    12. g4 -- just going with the plan. Not that strange. Not much thought needed. And definitely not an engine move: I let Stockfish run to 30 ply, and 12. g4 was not one of the first 15 preferences. But it does set a trap, which Ramesh would have identified if he had taken the time to analyse some basic variations to 4 ply depth.

    12...Ne5? -- Strange from Aronian, falling for the trap.

    13. g5! -- obvious, since

    13...Nfd7 14. b3! -- and now where will the Ne5 go after f4! 14...Rc8 is best, and White has 15. Nd5 followed by c4 and a comfortable plus, but Black is still alive.

    14...e6?? -- OK, so Black has fianchettoed his kingside bishop and left his king in the centre, with d6 defended only by the queen on c7. Can you spot any tactical motif here for White?

    15. f4 -- Why not get this in first? 15...Nc6 is clearly bad: I'm guessing Niemann saw 16. Ndb5 axb5 17. Nxb5 Qb8 18. Nxd6+ Ke7 19. Rad1 Rd8 20. f5! . 2600+ rated players generally know that this is what a winning position `feels like'.

    15. ...Rc8 16. Ndb5 axb5 17. Nxb5 Qxc2 18. Nxd6+ Ke7 -- nothing that I would call "very strange" in any of this, Ramesh, other than how badly Aronian has played.

    19. fxe5 Nxe5 20. Qb4 -- obvious. Niemann spends 30 seconds here, which is more than enough to establish that the dual threats of Nf5++ and Nxb7 are too strong. He would have checked 20...Rc5 and calculated that 21. Qxb6 wins, and that if 20...Nc6 then 21. Rxf7+. And of course 20...Kd7 21. Nxb7 would be no good either for Black.

    20...Qxe2 (allowing mate in two) 21. Nf5++ 1-0

    So after 8. Be2, which Niemann had opportunity to prepare at home, there were no mistakes by White. But, equally, none of the moves were very difficult for White to find, as Black did not play well enough to induce any mistakes from White. A 1600-rated player could have replicated the same game with White, and capitalised on Black's errors just as convincingly. You don't need an engine to find any of these moves.

    I just wish that players and commentators who hold significant influence and following within the global chess community will stop making inane comments that smear players and potentially damage their career prospects.
    FA Andrew Hardegen
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  2. #182
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    FIDE to investigate:

    https://www.fide.com/news/2015

    Following the recent developments in the Carlsen-Niemann controversy, FIDE's Fair Play Commission (FPL) has decided to act ex-officio and create an Investigatory Panel (IP). Three members of the Commission will form this panel, and it will also have the possibility to call for a consultation with external experts wherever analysis is required.

    The focus of the investigation would be twofold: checking the World Champion's claims of alleged cheating by Niemann and Niemann's self-statement regarding online cheating.

    As stated by Fair Play Chairperson Salomeja Zaksaite, the FPL is ready to examine the circumstances, compile and analyze all the data and evidence available, and ascertain the facts and allegations that have been made public. The panel will ensure a fair ruling, protecting the rights of both parties during the investigation.

    "In the best interest of the chess community, we would kindly ask the public to refrain from speculations on the outcomes and potential sanctions until all available facts are well considered, and a proper investigation is finalized," added Mrs Zaksaite.
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  3. #183
    CC Grandmaster Desmond's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Hardegen View Post
    I've just been looking at the game Niemann - Aronian.

    Ramesh's comments: "I find in his two games the one against Levon Aronian, where he played Bishop D3, followed by Bishop E2 and then short Castle, followed by G4... all these moves, he played very quickly. They did not look like human moves. I find them very strange."

    I assume Ramesh knows that this is an Allegro tournament. Surely players are allowed to play the opening quickly in Allegro, particularly if they are prepared well enough for the game.

    6. Bd3!? -- probably something Niemann would have had occasion to study, given the number of times he would have reached the position after 5...a6. He's allowed to play it very quickly. If 6...e5 then I guess 7. Nde2 is fine. Unusual, but it seems that all the other players are allowed to play unusual stuff.

    ...

    8. Be2!? -- again, something that Niemann would have looked at. The natural contra-Dragon development O-O, Be3, Qd2 is more difficult to achieve with the B on d3. Retreating the bishop to e2 costs a move, but Black's ...a6 is not always logically consistent in the Dragon. For instance, if 8...Nc6 9. Be3 O-O 10. Qd2 Bd7 11. O-O-O Rc8 12. Kb1 Ne5 13. g4, then don't we just have a Yugoslav where Black's earlier ...a6 now seems like a waste of a move? Still, maybe 10...d5 is fine. But there is a bit for Black to think about. 8. Be2 may be a good practical choice for Allegro.

    ...
    Yes I had a look at this also and came to similar conclusion (a bit weird but by no means indicative of cheating). I expect Niemann was doing some opening move order chicanery with Bf1-d3-e2 to get Aronian into some sort of Dragon-dorf position where he felt Aronian might not be strong.

    I do think it highlights a central problem though, in that when you have a known repeat cheat, it is hard for genuine players to play them and not suspect they are being cheated. And they play worse because of this. I actually think it's pretty ridiculous for organisers to invite such a person to top level events.
    So what's your excuse? For running like the devil's chasing you?

    See you in another life, brotha.

  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by Desmond View Post
    I do think it highlights a central problem though, in that when you have a known repeat cheat, it is hard for genuine players to play them and not suspect they are being cheated. And they play worse because of this. I actually think it's pretty ridiculous for organisers to invite such a person to top level events.
    I understand this view as well. But I think most of us would have done specific things in our teenage years that we would be slightly embarrassed about today. Should we all be fired from our jobs because of it? I would just say good on Niemann for being as frank as he has been about his past wrongs.
    FA Andrew Hardegen
    Southern Suburbs Chess Club (Perth) -- www.southernsuburbschessclub.org.au
    Senior Vice-President, CAWA -- www.cawa.org.au

    Chief Organiser, 2023 Australian Open (2nd-10th January) -- https://sites.google.com/view/2023ausopen/home

  5. #185
    CC Grandmaster Desmond's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Hardegen View Post
    I understand this view as well. But I think most of us would have done specific things in our teenage years that we would be slightly embarrassed about today. Should we all be fired from our jobs because of it? I would just say good on Niemann for being as frank as he has been about his past wrongs.
    That would certainly help if he had been frank about it. chess.com stated he cheated more than he admitted. If you're going to do the tell-all interview, you better tell all or else no one will believe you again.

    Yes we've all done things in our teenage years. Did they include cheating for money at the thing you're seeking employment in?
    Last edited by Desmond; 30-09-2022 at 09:59 AM.
    So what's your excuse? For running like the devil's chasing you?

    See you in another life, brotha.

  6. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by Desmond View Post
    That would certainly help if he had been frank about it. chess.com stated he cheated more than he admitted. If you're going to do the tell-all interview, you better tell all or else no one will believe you again.
    chess.com is in the process of acquiring Play Magnus Group, whose stocks have had a volatile ride lately, and I understand that a motivation for chess.com to bail out Magnus is to bring him on board. So chess.com will say whatever is in their interest. A statement was made retrospectively, and Niemann was banned, without any further evidence being provided.

    Quote Originally Posted by Desmond View Post
    Yes we've all done things in our teenage years. Did they include cheating for money at the thing you're seeking employment in?
    Evidence?
    FA Andrew Hardegen
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    Senior Vice-President, CAWA -- www.cawa.org.au

    Chief Organiser, 2023 Australian Open (2nd-10th January) -- https://sites.google.com/view/2023ausopen/home

  7. #187
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    Interesting to see how Niemann will perform in future competitions...
    Interested in Chess Lessons?
    Email webbaron!@gmail.com for more Info!

  8. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Hardegen View Post
    8. Be2!? -- again, something that Niemann would have looked at. The natural contra-Dragon development O-O, Be3, Qd2 is more difficult to achieve with the B on d3. Retreating the bishop to e2 costs a move, but Black's ...a6 is not always logically consistent in the Dragon. For instance, if 8...Nc6 9. Be3 O-O 10. Qd2 Bd7 11. O-O-O Rc8 12. Kb1 Ne5 13. g4, then don't we just have a Yugoslav where Black's earlier ...a6 now seems like a waste of a move? Still, maybe 10...d5 is fine. But there is a bit for Black to think about. 8. Be2 may be a good practical choice for Allegro..
    8.Be2 may not be a human move but according to the chess24 computer it's not a computer move either - their computer likes the obvious Be3.

    After Be2 White is playing the Romanishin Variation of the English with reversed colours. It could be argued that he really has lost a move, unlike some other reversed openings, so he is playing Black. But on the other hand it is a good version as he has not had to retreat his Knight from d4, as Black generally has to do. So not so illogical.

    It's a good illustration that if you want to make waffly allegations you can say that many moves "look strange" or are "not human". It's thinking of these non-routine moves that make GMs good. I imagine that RB has played a few such moves in his time.

    Incidentally Niemann did not play 8.Be2 very quickly as alleged. In OTB 39s would be quick but in this Allegro game it was his second-longest think.

  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Hardegen View Post
    chess.com is in the process of acquiring Play Magnus Group, whose stocks have had a volatile ride lately, and I understand that a motivation for chess.com to bail out Magnus is to bring him on board. So chess.com will say whatever is in their interest. A statement was made retrospectively, and Niemann was banned, without any further evidence being provided.



    Evidence?
    Niemann admitted cheating in a Titled Tuesday when he was 12 years old.

  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Colliver View Post
    Niemann admitted cheating in a Titled Tuesday when he was 12 years old.
    This is what Niemann has admitted to:

    " ... When I was 12 years old, I was with a friend and I was playing Titled Tuesday. I was playing, and he came over with an iPad with an engine, and I was 12 years old, and he said, sort of giving me the moves. I was a child, I had no idea what happened. This happened once, in an online tournament. I was just a child, and nothing happened then.

    Now four years later, when I was 16 years old during my streaming career, in an absolutely ridiculous mistake, in an unrated game other than that, after I was 12, I had never, ever in my life cheated in an over-the-board game, in an online tournament. They were unrated games, and Im admitting this, and Im saying my truth, because I do not want any misrepresentation. I am proud of myself that I learned from that mistake, and now I have given everything to chess. I have sacrificed everything for chess, and I do everything I can to improve."

    In most countries, a child of 12 cannot be charged with a crime. And a juvenile criminal record is either sealed or expunged once the offender turns 17/18 in many countries. I don't see why online cheating should be treated more harshly.

  11. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    This is what Niemann has admitted to:

    " ... When I was 12 years old, I was with a friend and I was playing Titled Tuesday. I was playing, and he came over with an iPad with an engine, and I was 12 years old, and he said, sort of giving me the moves. I was a child, I had no idea what happened. This happened once, in an online tournament. I was just a child, and nothing happened then.

    Now four years later, when I was 16 years old during my streaming career, in an absolutely ridiculous mistake, in an unrated game… other than that, after I was 12, I had never, ever in my life cheated in an over-the-board game, in an online tournament. They were unrated games, and I’m admitting this, and I’m saying my truth, because I do not want any misrepresentation. I am proud of myself that I learned from that mistake, and now I have given everything to chess. I have sacrificed everything for chess, and I do everything I can to improve."

    In most countries, a child of 12 cannot be charged with a crime. And a juvenile criminal record is either sealed or expunged once the offender turns 17/18 in many countries. I don't see why online cheating should be treated more harshly.
    I don't think this cheating should be treated as being very serious, but he did admit it in a public forum so I don't think it is unfair to note what he admitted.

  12. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Colliver View Post
    I don't think this cheating should be treated as being very serious, but he did admit it in a public forum so I don't think it is unfair to note what he admitted.
    Completely agree. Although it does raise the important question of what happens in a future case if a GM is banned from Chess.com, but claims innocence. Will Chess.com make their evidence public? After seeing what has happened to Niemann, I doubt that any professional player in the future is now going to publicly admit to cheating online.

  13. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    Completely agree. Although it does raise the important question of what happens in a future case if a GM is banned from Chess.com, but claims innocence. Will Chess.com make their evidence public? After seeing what has happened to Niemann, I doubt that any professional player in the future is now going to publicly admit to cheating online.
    Has chess.com ever made their evidence public on cheating claims? As far as I know, their policy is strictly to keep their methods secret. I don't see how the Niemann situation changes anything in this regard.

  14. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by pappubahry View Post
    Has chess.com ever made their evidence public on cheating claims? As far as I know, their policy is strictly to keep their methods secret. I don't see how the Niemann situation changes anything in this regard.
    I can understand why they want to keep their detection methods secret (so as not to alert potential cheaters). But what happens if other players follow Carlsen's example and boycott a player who has been repeatedly banned on Chess.com, but who (unlike Niemann) protests his innocence?

  15. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    I can understand why they want to keep their detection methods secret (so as not to alert potential cheaters). But what happens if other players follow Carlsen's example and boycott a player who has been repeatedly banned on Chess.com, but who (unlike Niemann) protests his innocence?
    I don't think anything in particular would happen? If players started boycotting Petrosian (this is the only case I know of someone who publicly maintains their innocence over a chess.com cheating ban), I wouldn't expect chess.com to say anything more than they did on the subject in 2020.

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