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  1. #196
    CC Grandmaster Desmond's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Hardegen View Post
    chess.com is in the process of acquiring Play Magnus Group, whose stocks have had a volatile ride lately, and I understand that a motivation for chess.com to bail out Magnus is to bring him on board. So chess.com will say whatever is in their interest. A statement was made retrospectively, and Niemann was banned, without any further evidence being provided.

    Evidence?
    Well Hans admitted to cheating in a tournament with cash prizes (as others noted).

    I don't really buy into the chess.com conspiracy theories all that much. They stated he cheated more than he admitted, and they stated that they sent him the proof. If this was just fabricated, it would be incredibly simple for him to say, "no, that's not true, I only ever cheated 2 times as per what I publically stated". He didn't do that. If he only ever cheated the exact number of times he has admitted to, there would nothing to stop him making such a statement. The conclusion is, he's cheated more than he's admitted. Whether that's 3 times, or dozens of times, or hundreds, or thousands of times, I don't know. As I said at the time he made the admission, it didn't ring true to me then. And it still doesn't.

    Calling out moves by a friend on an ipad - what, a few moves in 1 game? You wouldn't be banned for that. It has to be more than that for the algorithms to pick it up, surely. Though it is rather reminiscent of Dlugy's claim to have had students call out engine moves to him, unbeknownst to him of course. That turned out to be an under-admission, and he was caught cheating again some years later. I'm seeing a pattern.

    Chess.com also hung Magnus out to dry when they said they had not given him (or anyone) details of who has cheated or other relevant info. If they had not said this, people might assume that Magnus had inside info that others don't. They ruled that out.
    So what's your excuse? For running like the devil's chasing you?

    See you in another life, brotha.

  2. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by pappubahry View Post
    I don't think anything in particular would happen? If players started boycotting Petrosian (this is the only case I know of someone who publicly maintains their innocence over a chess.com cheating ban), I wouldn't expect chess.com to say anything more than they did on the subject in 2020.
    It may not be a problem for Chess.com, but it would surely be a problem for FIDE and chess organisers if (for example) 90% of the top 50 players all refuse to play another player in the top 10! And then it might become a problem for Chess.com if that player takes legal action against them for damages from loss of income, which could force them to justify their ban.

  3. #198
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    What Niemann admitted to was more than cheating twice.
    He said he cheated at 12 in a Titled Tuesday and he was not caught.
    He also said he cheated in a number of games when he was 16 to try and raise his rating so that he could play higher rated players. It seems that these games did not happen all in the same session. However he says he did not cheat against those higher rated players like Nakamura. However he was caught cheating and banned from chess.com for a period if time before returning.

    If there started to be a widespread boycott by top players of players who have been banned from chess.com or another site then it could become quite problematic, especially if the list of young players I have seen as being claimed as being banned on chess.com is true. FIDE would have to step in and try and salvage the situation.

  4. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Colliver View Post
    What Niemann admitted to was more than cheating twice.
    He said he cheated at 12 in a Titled Tuesday and he was not caught.
    He also said he cheated in a number of games when he was 16 to try and raise his rating so that he could play higher rated players. It seems that these games did not happen all in the same session. However he says he did not cheat against those higher rated players like Nakamura. However he was caught cheating and banned from chess.com for a period if time before returning.
    Do we know what $ amount was involved? Banning someone over a token prize from seven years ago at the age of 12 seems harsh, even if technically it was money. On the other hand if it was a decent amount it's more serious notwithstanding his age - normally I would have difficulty believing that unknown 12yos can play online chess for squillions, but then it was America.

    If there started to be a widespread boycott by top players of players who have been banned from chess.com or another site then it could become quite problematic, especially if the list of young players I have seen as being claimed as being banned on chess.com is true. FIDE would have to step in and try and salvage the situation.
    Interestingly there haven't been any similar protests by other players, even though he's more of a threat to second place than to Carlsen, so they aren't convinced or at least not as adamant. Perhaps they are verbally being supportive so as to stay on the fence until evidence either way emerges.

  5. #200
    CC Grandmaster Desmond's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Colliver View Post
    What Niemann admitted to was more than cheating twice.
    He said he cheated at 12 in a Titled Tuesday and he was not caught.
    He also said he cheated in a number of games when he was 16 to try and raise his rating so that he could play higher rated players. It seems that these games did not happen all in the same session.
    Where did he say it was not in only one session? He said he cheated twice in his life, once when he was 12 and once when he was 16. He did not specifically say if the time (singular) when he was 16 was one session or not. I think if it's over a couple of days or something like that, to get his rating up as he said, then that would be consistent with what he admitted. However if it was more systematic, over say weeks or months while 16, then I'd take that as being an under-admission on his part. And if that is the case, and chess.com has evidence of that, then I think that would be very bad for his current credibility.
    So what's your excuse? For running like the devil's chasing you?

    See you in another life, brotha.

  6. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Rout View Post
    Do we know what $ amount was involved?
    This report from a Titled Tuesday in 2015 shows a table of the prizemoney at that time: $750 for first place, $1800 distributed in total. (Including $100 to Niemann for top FM/NM.)

    These days there's a $2500 prize pool for each of the two Tuesday tournaments, $1000 for first place.

  7. #202
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    What Niemann said in his interview is transcribed here:

    https://chess24.com/en/read/news/han...at-his-critics

    He is admitting to sporadic cheating that sounds like it could have been over some period of time when he was 16 but the scale and duration of it is unclear. It doesn't help that he contradicts himself repeatedly about rated vs unrated games on chess.com.
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  8. #203
    CC Grandmaster Garvinator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham View Post
    FIDE to investigate:

    https://www.fide.com/news/2015

    Following the recent developments in the Carlsen-Niemann controversy, FIDE's Fair Play Commission (FPL) has decided to act ex-officio and create an Investigatory Panel (IP). Three members of the Commission will form this panel, and it will also have the possibility to call for a consultation with external experts wherever analysis is required.

    The focus of the investigation would be twofold: checking the World Champion's claims of alleged cheating by Niemann and Niemann's self-statement regarding online cheating.

    As stated by Fair Play Chairperson Salomeja Zaksaite, the FPL is ready to examine the circumstances, compile and analyze all the data and evidence available, and ascertain the facts and allegations that have been made public. The panel will ensure a fair ruling, protecting the rights of both parties during the investigation.

    "In the best interest of the chess community, we would kindly ask the public to refrain from speculations on the outcomes and potential sanctions until all available facts are well considered, and a proper investigation is finalized," added Mrs Zaksaite.
    About time, but surely those barn door marks have got to hurt.

  9. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Rout View Post
    Do we know what $ amount was involved? Banning someone over a token prize from seven years ago at the age of 12 seems harsh, even if technically it was money. On the other hand if it was a decent amount it's more serious notwithstanding his age - normally I would have difficulty believing that unknown 12yos can play online chess for squillions, but then it was America. ...
    Just for comparison, a 15 year old boy received a two year ban for OTB cheating in the 2009 Australian Open U1600. I don't think what Niemann has admitted to is as serious as that.

  10. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    Just for comparison, a 15 year old boy received a two year ban for OTB cheating in the 2009 Australian Open U1600. I don't think what Niemann has admitted to is as serious as that.
    Yes, What Hans has admitted to is nowhere near as serious as that case.

    However if chess.com have proof of much more prolonged and worse cheating we might be starting to get close. It should only lead to a ban from playing on chess.com. Other sites might choose to ban him as well.

  11. #206
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    While we in chess world have been rocked by this cheating scandal, we are not alone.

    Tournament fishing has been rocked after cheaters were caught in a Walleye tournament. Walleye is a North American freshwater species of fish.
    Apparently the cheaters stuffed items down the fish's throats to increase their weight.

  12. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Colliver View Post
    While we in chess world have been rocked by this cheating scandal, we are not alone.

    Tournament fishing has been rocked after cheaters were caught in a Walleye tournament. Walleye is a North American freshwater species of fish.
    Apparently the cheaters stuffed items down the fish's throats to increase their weight.
    Amazing, I think every single sport has been exposed to cheating in one form of another - whether it is cycling or fishing or chess! I wonder if those who stuff the fishes will cope a ban from the competition for years to come.
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  13. #208
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Article about the fish cheating here

    https://defector.com/pro-fishing-has...-winning-fish/
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  14. #209
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    And on the same website, poker:

    https://defector.com/historically-st...ng-allegation/

    Poker experts here might make more useful comment but similarities to Carlsen - Niemann here: suggestion that live broadcast could have been taken advantage of, suggestion that weaker player gave nonsensical explanations of play, strong players split in views.
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  15. #210
    CC Grandmaster Desmond's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham View Post
    And on the same website, poker:

    https://defector.com/historically-st...ng-allegation/

    Poker experts here might make more useful comment but similarities to Carlsen - Niemann here: suggestion that live broadcast could have been taken advantage of, suggestion that weaker player gave nonsensical explanations of play, strong players split in views.
    Definitely not a poker expert, but just thought I'd mention that, of some poker videos I have seen, they were often broadcast with a delay, or with the players' hold cards concealed until the end of the hand. Much like with chess, it is hard to understand why the practice stopped. Apparently she gave back the money she won in that hand. I haven't seen any indication that Niemann did.

    It kind of highlights the differences with chess anyway, and also comparisons with cheating in other sports. Cheating in chess is far more of a problem in my opinion, because someone with absolutely no skill in chess at all, but who has a mobile phone, is far better than the best chess player in the world. In poker, if she knew the cards (for sake of argument) it only gives her 50-50 chance on the hand, depending what the final cards are to be drawn.

    In the fishing example, the guy at least had to catch the fish, before metaphorically putting his thumb on the scales. In cycling, blood doping would give you a slight edge, but you still have to be damn good cyclist to compete anywhere near the best anyway.

    Not so in chess. The best player in the world cannot have a chance against any schmuck with a phone.
    So what's your excuse? For running like the devil's chasing you?

    See you in another life, brotha.

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