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  1. #1
    CC Grandmaster Garvinator's Avatar
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    Australian Junior structure

    During my time at the Australian Juniors, I had the following structure thought and I think it has merit so far, so I will put it up here on the bb and let others comment etc.

    One idea of thought of is that the under 18 open could be run as a nine round, accelerated swiss instead of the current monster swiss 11 round format. I noticed that in my opinion the first round was a rather waste of time and a day which could have been better used doing something else.

    I think the girls under 18 could be reduced to nine rounds as well. There were only 17 players this time and nine rounds would be generally sufficent to get a decent sorting of the field.

    Any other thoughts?

  2. #2
    Illuminati Bill Gletsos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ggrayggray
    During my time at the Australian Juniors, I had the following structure thought and I think it has merit so far, so I will put it up here on the bb and let others comment etc.

    One idea of thought of is that the under 18 open could be run as a nine round, accelerated swiss instead of the current monster swiss 11 round format. I noticed that in my opinion the first round was a rather waste of time and a day which could have been better used doing something else.

    I think the girls under 18 could be reduced to nine rounds as well. There were only 17 players this time and nine rounds would be generally sufficent to get a decent sorting of the field.

    Any other thoughts?
    There was little to no support from the Junior leagues to reduce the U18 Open from 11 to 9 rounds and the ACF Council rejected the Gurus suggestion to do so.

  3. #3
    CC Grandmaster Alan Shore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ggrayggray
    One idea of thought of is that the under 18 open could be run as a nine round, accelerated swiss instead of the current monster swiss 11 round format. I noticed that in my opinion the first round was a rather waste of time and a day which could have been better used doing something else.
    Well, I have a feeling you already know the disdain I feel for that suggestion given my comments on starter's 'competitive' thread... even so, I would be interested in what the participants felt, rather than the organisers. If we can get some feedback from the players themselves on what they thought about round 1 that would be extremely helpful.

    (Don't give up though, I've mentioned before I may concede to more competetive games in long time controls such as 90 60, given sufficient support).
    "I can't go back to yesterday because I was a different person then."
    - White Queen, Alice through the Looking-Glass

  4. #4
    CC Grandmaster Garvinator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Gletsos
    There was little to no support from the Junior leagues to reduce the U18 Open from 11 to 9 rounds and the ACF Council rejected the Gurus suggestion to do so.
    what was the thinking on this matter? I am curious. I would have thought that the opportunity to make it nine rounds to reduce accommodation costs and to have the players less involved in the 'junk' rounds would be jumped at.

    Am i missing something?

  5. #5
    CC Grandmaster Alan Shore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ggrayggray
    what was the thinking on this matter? I am curious. I would have thought that the opportunity to make it nine rounds to reduce accommodation costs and to have the players less involved in the 'junk' rounds would be jumped at.

    Am i missing something?
    I might venture:

    1/ It would give a better chance of a clear result (I understand the irony of comparing this to the recently completed juniors, but anyway..)
    2/ If you're travelling all that way, the more games the better.
    3/ More days for fun activities and holiday atmosphere, as well as having sufficient time to make new friends.

    and of course 4/ Players enjoy the upset/(junk) rounds
    "I can't go back to yesterday because I was a different person then."
    - White Queen, Alice through the Looking-Glass

  6. #6
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    I think 9 rounds is too few with over 80 players, even accelerated. The 1990(?) Junior in Perth was accelerated swiss. Not sure if it was 9 or 11 rounds.

    Note that with most accelerated swisses, you still have one or two junk rounds (at the end of the acceleration rather than the first round). It can take just as long for the genuine top competitors to meet.

    I have elsewhere proposed a graduated acceleration where there are several acceleration groups at different levels, and the acceleration points are removed gradually over the first three to four rounds. I think it's better than a normal acceleration, but probably 9 rounds is still too few.

    To be honest, I don't really think a couple of double round days are that much of a problem. When you use FIDE time controls, nearly all games are finished within three and a half hours. At the old time controls, you could play a six hour session and still have an adjournment after that. Also, many of the international junior comps now have double round days so it is something the top players certainly need to get used to. I admit I don't have the inside perspective that some others may have, beyond the memories of playing some eight hour games as a junior.

  7. #7
    CC International Master Mischa's Avatar
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    Many under 12's [remember them?] were not happy with only 9 rounds.

  8. #8
    Illuminati Bill Gletsos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noidea
    Many under 12's [remember them?] were not happy with only 9 rounds.
    Another of the Guru's ideas that was supported by the majority of junior leagues and passed by the ACF Council.

  9. #9
    CC International Master Mischa's Avatar
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    Junior leagues? i don't remember anyone asking me or other parents of under 12's what they wanted? Guru or anybody.

  10. #10
    Illuminati Bill Gletsos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ggrayggray
    what was the thinking on this matter? I am curious. I would have thought that the opportunity to make it nine rounds to reduce accommodation costs and to have the players less involved in the 'junk' rounds would be jumped at.

    Am i missing something?
    Yes, you are.
    The aim of the event is to fnd the Aus Junior champion, not reduce accomodation costs or supposed 'junk' rounds.

  11. #11
    Illuminati Bill Gletsos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noidea
    Junior leagues? i don't remember anyone asking me or other parents of under 12's what they wanted? Guru or anybody.
    Thats because you Mexicans dont have a junior League.

    The NSW delegate voted as advised by the NSWJCL. I believe the delegates from the other states were junior leagues exist did likewise.

  12. #12
    CC International Master Mischa's Avatar
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    Hmmm...

  13. #13
    CC Grandmaster Garvinator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Gletsos
    Yes, you are.
    The aim of the event is to fnd the Aus Junior champion, not reduce accomodation costs or supposed 'junk' rounds.
    supposed, there is nothing supposed about it. Have a look at round one of this years australian juniors, the average rating differential per game was 700 points. How is that useful in finding who is the best australian junior?

    Excluding the Swedish juniors who we werent certain of their correct rating, there wasnt one upset result in the first round. All the higher seeded players won.

    Code:
    No Name                      Feder Loc   Result   Name                         Feder Loc 
    
     1 McGuirk, Michael          NSW   1475    0:1    Chow, Samuel                 VIC   2199
     2 Yu, Ronald                NSW   2092    1:0    Hendrey, Thomas              TAS   1474
     3 Parravicini, Matthew      NSW   1469    0:1    Wei, Michael                 ACT   2043
     4 Jovanovic, Peter          ACT   2040    1:0    Kaspar, Ric                  QLD   1450
     5 Behne-Smith, David        NSW   1420    0:1    Stojic, Dusan                VIC   1984
     6 Wallis, Christopher       VIC   1944    1:0    Beltrami, Matthew            ACT   1414
     7 Kerksal, David            VIC   1389    0:1    Obst, James                  SA    1942
     8 Oliver, Gareth            ACT   1931    1:0    Yu, Derek                    VIC   1388
     9 Bennett, Calvin           VIC   1362    0:1    Ikeda, Junta                 ACT   1916
    10 Suttor, Vincent           NSW   1904    1:0    Ung, Thomas                  ACT   1348
    11 Glenton, Alan             VIC   1301    0:1    Jager, Jesse                 VIC   1895
    12 Ly, Moulthun              QLD   1881    1:0    Chu, Louis                   NSW   1300
    13 Schon, Eugene             VIC   1279    0:1    Hu, Jason                    NSW   1873
    14 Lugo, Ruperto             VIC   1845    1:0    Eldridge-Smith, Leif         ACT   1228
    15 Slack-Smith, Blair        WA    1218    0:1    Kimura, Toshi                QLD   1843
    16 Illingworth, Max          NSW   1839    1:0    Zulfic, Fedja                SA    1212
    17 Taylor, Paul              WA    1178    0:1    Lattimore, Tor               ACT   1829
    18 Lin, Zhigen Wilson        VIC   1819    1:0    Lloyd, Aidan                 ACT   1081
    19 Joel, Nathan              VIC   1054    0:1    Lindberg, Douglas            VIC   1807
    20 Wang, Zhengbo             WA    1798    1:0    Dalton, Joshua               VIC   1053
    21 Kenmure, Jamie            VIC   909     0:1    Vijayakumar, Rukman          VIC   1768
    22 Donaldson, Thomas         WA    1755    1:0    Barrett, Daniel J (Somerset) QLD   828 
    23 Kimura, Mikio             QLD   732     0:1    Stevens, Tristan             SA    1753
    24 Huang, Justin             NSW   1747    1:0    Jones, Daniel                VIC   633 
    25 Redpath, Nicholas         ACT   606     0:1    Rice, Edward                 VIC   1746
    26 Neeman, Jeremy            ACT   1730    1:0    Setiabudi, Allen             ACT   567 
    27 Ung, Josephine            ACT   464     0:1    Tse, Jeffrey                 NSW   1729
    28 Sreetharan, Kishore       ACT   1716   .5:.5   Berggren, Marcus             OS    1753
    29 Berggren, Patrik          OS    1736    1:0    Van Dijk, Devrim             VIC   1680
    30 Levin, Joshua             NSW   1677    0:1    Berggren, Jonathon           OS    1539
    31 Boleson-Robinson, Tristan VIC           0:1    Anderson, Daniel C           QLD   1673
    32 Hoang, Khoi               ACT   1650    1:0    Brown, Brody                 TAS       
    33 Dyer, Alastair            TAS           0:1    Viswanath, Ganesh            WA    1647
    34 Van Heerden, Daniel       WA    1631    1:0    Gregoric, Isaiah             SA        
    35 Griffiths, Michael        TAS           0:1    Muthusamy, Reubban           VIC   1627
    36 Tran, Christopher         ACT   1596    1:0    Ho, Raynault                 VIC       
    37 Lau, Aaron                VIC           0:1    Harris, Benjamin             NSW   1588
    38 Wu, Edwin                 NSW   1584    1:0    Letcher, Toby                VIC       
    39 Lucas, Daniel             VIC           0:1    Guo-Yuthok, Sherab           ACT   1578
    40 Brown, Andrew             ACT   1521    1:0    Ng, Nicholas                 VIC       
    41 Priestley, Tom            VIC           0:1    Maguire, Jesse               ACT   1518
    42 Choong, Yita              WA    1501    1:0    Priestley, George            VIC       
    43 Smith, Charlie            TAS           0:1    Humphries, Ryan              WA    1495

  14. #14
    CC International Master Mischa's Avatar
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    I have noidea so please explain how reducing the number of rounds will help?

  15. #15
    Illuminati Bill Gletsos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ggrayggray
    supposed, there is nothing supposed about it. Have a look at round one of this years australian juniors, the average rating differential per game was 700 points. How is that useful in finding who is the best australian junior?

    Excluding the Swedish juniors who we werent certain of their correct rating, there wasnt one upset result in the first round. All the higher seeded players won.
    So what.
    To have any sort of validity you would need to show that this has happened in the first round of the Aus Junior on significantly more than 1 occasion.
    Lets say at least the last 10.

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