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  1. #31
    CC Grandmaster antichrist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham View Post
    I can give a reason for it - outmoded Swiss Perfect pairings are unfair to players. I've played in a few tournaments that were severely affected by incorrect Swiss Perfect pairings, especially those that gave leaders unreasonably easy opponents in the final round.
    I was recently told that in the final round that pairings can be manually adjusted, is that the case?
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  2. #32
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by antichrist View Post
    I was recently told that in the final round that pairings can be manually adjusted, is that the case?
    One can use a pairings program to adjust pairings for any round if one wants to, but it is usually not correct to do so and in some cases (eg FIDE norm events) explicitly disallowed.

    The problem with manual pairings as a solution for wrong pairings is the system is now so complex that producing manual pairings that are correct quickly is not practical. The only solution is to use a program that has been tested and is known to work.
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  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham View Post
    I can give a reason for it - outmoded Swiss Perfect pairings are unfair to players. I've played in a few tournaments that were severely affected by incorrect Swiss Perfect pairings, especially those that gave leaders unreasonably easy opponents in the final round.
    Thanks Kevin - I appreciate the feedback. But I am talking about Brisbane Club events where the top prize is never more than $100. The issues I (and others) have with using Vega at the club, which I've explained in detail, don't apply to weekenders (or FIDE rated events) and I can see why they should be run with a FIDE approved program.

    Does that mean that as long as I use a FIDE approved program, and submit the results in Vega format, they will be accepted for rating?

  4. #34
    Illuminati Bill Gletsos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    So the 'use it or lose it' condition always existed, but neither the ACF nor the CAQ ever informed the Vega licence users about it (I certainly don't recall ever being told about it)? Was it an official ACF policy not to inform the users
    Why would the ACF issue a license for Vega for the rating of ACF tournaments to someone who is not going to be submitting tournaments for ACF rating.

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    Just to be clear, I have never said that I will not submit ACF rated tournaments. My position is exactly the opposite - I am perfectly willing to submit events in Vega format for ACF rating, but the CAQ and the ACF have said that they will not accept them if the pairings are not done in Vega (even though they can't give a reason for this policy).
    Kevin has addressed this.
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  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Gletsos View Post
    Kevin has addressed this.
    So as long as I use a FIDE approved program to do the pairings, and submit the results in Vega format, the tournaments will be accepted for rating?

  6. #36
    Illuminati Bill Gletsos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    So as long as I use a FIDE approved program to do the pairings, and submit the results in Vega format, the tournaments will be accepted for rating?
    No Kevin didn’t say that, so don’t go putting words in his mouth. Kevin just explained why Swiss Perfect was not acceptable.
    As previously stated if you want your tournaments ACF rated then you need to use Vega for the pairings and submission.
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  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Gletsos View Post
    No Kevin didn’t say that, so don’t go putting words in his mouth. Kevin just explained why Swiss Perfect was not acceptable.
    As previously stated if you want your tournaments ACF rated then you need to use Vega for the pairings and submission.
    And my post to which Kevin was replying did not mention Swiss Perfect:
    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    Just to be clear, I have never said that I will not submit ACF rated tournaments. My position is exactly the opposite - I am perfectly willing to submit events in Vega format for ACF rating, but the CAQ and the ACF have said that they will not accept them if the pairings are not done in Vega (even though they can't give a reason for this policy).
    So the ACF still can't give a reason why they will not accept tournaments for rating if the pairings are not done in Vega! But it obviously is not a pairings issue.

  8. #38
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    And my post to which Kevin was replying did not mention Swiss Perfect:
    Indeed not but previous posts did.
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  9. #39
    Illuminati Bill Gletsos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Gletsos View Post
    No Kevin didn’t say that, so don’t go putting words in his mouth. Kevin just explained why Swiss Perfect was not acceptable.
    As previously stated if you want your tournaments ACF rated then you need to use Vega for the pairings and submission.
    And my post to which Kevin was replying did not mention Swiss Perfect:
    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    Just to be clear, I have never said that I will not submit ACF rated tournaments. My position is exactly the opposite - I am perfectly willing to submit events in Vega format for ACF rating, but the CAQ and the ACF have said that they will not accept them if the pairings are not done in Vega (even though they can't give a reason for this policy).
    You clearly state “even though they can’t give me a reason for this policy” and Kevin answered you as follows:
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham View Post
    I can give a reason for it - outmoded Swiss Perfect pairings are unfair to players. I've played in a few tournaments that were severely affected by incorrect Swiss Perfect pairings, especially those that gave leaders unreasonably easy opponents in the final round.
    Then in response to my comment above “that Kevin addressed it”, you changed your question entirely as follows:
    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    So as long as I use a FIDE approved program to do the pairings, and submit the results in Vega format, the tournaments will be accepted for rating?
    I simply pointed out your question above had nothing to do with what Kevin said and I never said you mentioned Swiss Perfect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    So the ACF still can't give a reason why they will not accept tournaments for rating if the pairings are not done in Vega! But it obviously is not a pairings issue..
    Because there is no guarantee that the pairings/results transposed from the other pairing program are entered correctly. I’ve seen the same rubbish happen where people have manually entered pairings and results into Swiss Perfect.
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  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Gletsos View Post
    Because there is no guarantee that the pairings/results transposed from the other pairing program are entered correctly. Iíve seen the same rubbish happen where people have manually entered pairings and results into Swiss Perfect.
    Finally there is a reason!! And this is a good reason too.

    Of course the obvious reply is that I did this last year (and have done it in the past) without causing any problems. I can't guarantee that I would never make a mistake, but I do have a proven track record of reliability.

    I assume some sort of financial guarantee would be acceptable to the ACF?

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham View Post
    Indeed not but previous posts did.
    That's a fair point. But I was only asking for clarification.

  12. #42
    Illuminati Bill Gletsos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    Finally there is a reason!! And this is a good reason too.

    Of course the obvious reply is that I did this last year (and have done it in the past) without causing any problems. I can't guarantee that I would never make a mistake, but I do have a proven track record of reliability.

    I assume some sort of financial guarantee would be acceptable to the ACF?
    It's quite simple.
    From the 1st June 2021 you must use Vega for pairings and submission as stated in the ACF newsletter.

    If you don't use Vega then your tournaments wont be rated.
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  13. #43
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    I have to say I found this thread amusing but also conclusive. Thank you for the clarification.

  14. #44
    CC Grandmaster Garvinator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaun94 View Post
    I have to say I found this thread amusing but also conclusive. Thank you for the clarification.
    How is this thread amusing? A CAQ affiliated club is stating openly that they are struggling with the ACF demanded program, but instead of offering support and assistance, you find it amusing.

    I was considering contacting Michael Darcy and asking for assistance in this area, with the view of possibly coming back to being an arbiter, but if genuine pleas for assistance are met with amusement from CAQ officials, then I really do not see the point in bothering.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garvinator View Post
    How is this thread amusing? A CAQ affiliated club is stating openly that they are struggling with the ACF demanded program, but instead of offering support and assistance, you find it amusing.

    I was considering contacting Michael Darcy and asking for assistance in this area, with the view of possibly coming back to being an arbiter, but if genuine pleas for assistance are met with amusement from CAQ officials, then I really do not see the point in bothering.
    My amusement was based around the back and forth I found it almost like a debate. Also as stated previously some time ago my comments on a private chess forum have no connection to opinions of the caq as this is an unofficial forum and I am acting in an unofficialcapacity. I have offered support in the form of directing Patrick to the point of contact for Vega in qld previously. I had provided some of the same information mentioned in this thread as well as informing him that it is not a caq decision but an acf one.

    If you choose to come back as an arbiter great. If you decide thats not what you wish to do that's fine too. If you were to contact Michael D'Arcy I'm sure he would be able to offer some assistance when it comes to using Vega.

    If you require further assistance on a caq level it would be best to contact me directly rather than posting on an unofficial forum online. If you don't have my contact details message me privately and I will provide them. Alternatively contact information for caq office bearers can be found on the caq website.

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