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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Gletsos View Post
    I was trying to suggest you need people who actually know how to arbit and not just someone who is willing to give it a go.
    Bill, in your view, how many people in Australia know how to arbit professionally right now? And how many of the clubs (particularly smaller clubs) have such people available and if not - realistically attract such professional arbiters?
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  2. #47
    Illuminati Bill Gletsos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    That player was cheating a) against me b) in the tournament where i was a participant and i did have access to all of his games. Needless to say - he was (eventually!) disqualified!

    Re events that I did not witness, I would rather not bring names to light. But here we go, one particular event that happened in a tournament where a chess student of mine was playing (and It was NOT Melbourne Chess Club, it was ANOTHER club - it would never happen at MCC):
    A player's phone starts ringing during the game. He answers the phone in front of the arbiter and goes outside to take the phone call. Then he comes back to continue with the game. I checked - it was an ACF rated event.
    P.S. his opponents did complain to the arbiter and organiser and the club president as well.
    If arbiters are not following the FIDE Laws of Chess for rated tournaments then for ACF rated events players should complain to their State Rating Officer (as they submit the results for ACF rating) or to directly to me. For FIDE rated tournaments they should complain to me.
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  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eamonn O'Molloy View Post
    I heard the discussion at the end of this game and spoke to the witness and there is no doubt that Player B claimed the win on time.
    That makes it clear. Since B has made a valid claim of a win on time, the result is a win to Player B (1-0). Michael's original decision was correct.

    Whatever happens after the game has no bearing on the result of the game. Even if Player B were to specifically say "I resign" during the post-game discussion, this wouldn't be accepted, as the game has already finished.

    If Player B leaves the tournament without notice, he scores no points for the remaining rounds but does not lose the points that he has already earned. So the score of 0-0 makes no sense unless it is stated in the tournament rules that players must inform the arbiter of their results. Of course the rateable games that Player B has played in rounds 1-6 should be rated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eamonn O'Molloy View Post
    Immediately after the game finished, I heard Player A insist several times to player B "you should have resigned". After that Player B decided to leave and said "it's your game". I interpreted this as more "I can't be bothered arguing, I'm going home, put it down as a win for you if you must, I don't care" rather than "you should have the point because you won the game".
    From your account, Player B did not even specifically say "I resign". Language can be misconstrued. While anything said after the completion of the game is less relevant to the result, the remark "it's your game" should not have been accepted by anyone as an expression of a wish to resign. In addition to your eyewitness interpretation, "it's your game" could possibly be intended as (i) an expression of sympathy, or (ii) straightforward advice to Player A that he needs to first win by valid means to score points and that Player A is responsible for his own results, or (iii) a derisive remark, etc.
    FA Andrew Hardegen
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  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Rout View Post
    * The manner of reporting results is not a FIDE law but a local admin procedure. In general arbiters in not especially serious events aren't too pedantic about how they find out results.
    There is 8.7 which seems close to covering the reporting of results, but it applies only when players are keeping score, hence not to most club allegros.

    Quote Originally Posted by FIDE Laws of Chess
    8.7
    At the conclusion of the game both players shall sign both scoresheets, indicating the result of the game. Even if incorrect, this result shall stand, unless the arbiter decides otherwise.
    FA Andrew Hardegen
    Southern Suburbs Chess Club (Perth)
    www.southernsuburbschessclub.org.au

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    Bill, in your view, how many people in Australia know how to arbit professionally right now? And how many of the clubs (particularly smaller clubs) have such people available and if not - realistically attract such professional arbiters?
    The allegro events at the MCC are about the same size as the current events at the Brisbane Club, and we now have two paid arbiters, neither of whom play. Your allegros would require much more supervision, because there is more than one game per session. Although they are not being ACF-rated.

    I know relatively little about how the MCC works, and I'm not trying to tell you how to run your club. But I was very surprised that all of your arbiters were playing when the dispute occurred, as I'd assumed that at least one was a non-playing arbiter. In the past, I've tried playing and arbitering in the same event, and I find that both suffer as a result.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    re stopping the clock to deal with the situation: for this - the situation has to be reported by the players first.
    It is not true in general that the irregularity has to be reported by a player first. FIDE Laws permit the arbiter to intervene in a game in any case described by the Laws of Chess. He doesn't need to wait for a report from a player.

    Some other players and arbiters that I have met at non-ACF-rated junior tournaments have told me something similarly at odds with the FIDE stance: that the arbiter is not allowed to intervene unless requested by a player. Is this a club rule or has it been brought in from some other source?

    According to FIDE, the arbiter needs to observe the games, see that the Laws of Chess are followed and applied, and also:

    Quote Originally Posted by FIDE laws of Chess
    12.2

    The arbiter shall:

    12.2.1 ensure fair play,

    12.2.2 act in the best interest of the competition,

    12.2.3 ensure that a good playing environment is maintained,

    12.2.4 ensure that the players are not disturbed,

    12.2.5 supervise the progress of the competition,

    12.2.6 take special measures in the interests of disabled players and those who need medical attention,

    12.2.7 follow the Anti-Cheating Rules or Guidelines
    Intervening to mediate a dispute between two players, over a game just played, would be justified and expected under any of 12.2.1-12.2.5. I don't think anyone should mind if a playing arbiter stops his clock to deal with something like this.
    FA Andrew Hardegen
    Southern Suburbs Chess Club (Perth)
    www.southernsuburbschessclub.org.au

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Gletsos View Post
    If arbiters are not following the FIDE Laws of Chess for rated tournaments then for ACF rated events players should complain to their State Rating Officer (as they submit the results for ACF rating) or to directly to me. For FIDE rated tournaments they should complain to me.
    thank you, I will pass the message on.
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  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    The allegro events at the MCC are about the same size as the current events at the Brisbane Club, and we now have two paid arbiters, neither of whom play. Your allegros would require much more supervision, because there is more than one game per session. Although they are not being ACF-rated.

    I know relatively little about how the MCC works, and I'm not trying to tell you how to run your club. But I was very surprised that all of your arbiters were playing when the dispute occurred, as I'd assumed that at least one was a non-playing arbiter. In the past, I've tried playing and arbitering in the same event, and I find that both suffer as a result.
    Should also be noted that disputes are very rare. Certainly do not happen weekly. Most weeks, not even a single dispute and most weeks we have a very competent chief arbiter who also plays...but it does not seem to be a problem. I am pretty sure, should we get some other (not playing) arbiter of a lower calibre -things will only get worse.
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  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    Should also be noted that disputes are very rare. Certainly do not happen weekly.
    But when disputes do happen, they galvanise some useful discussion in Arbiters' Corner, so thanks for sharing!
    FA Andrew Hardegen
    Southern Suburbs Chess Club (Perth)
    www.southernsuburbschessclub.org.au

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