So who should get a Point?

[MichaelBaron]

In today's MCC allegro, we encountered an interesting situation:

in the [Player B-Player A] game played in round 6. [Player A] lost on time (apparently in a very good position). Upon loud expressions of the great sorrow by [Player A] - [Player B] (who was apparently not happy with the way his tournament was going anyway) pointed out to [Player A] that its ok with him if [Player A] gets the point. After rd, 6 [Player B] withdraws from the tournament without reporting the result and leaves the buildings.

[Player A] proceeds to enter the result as a win for him. However, there is a witness to this lovely ''event'' who was playing on the board next to them...the witness reports what happened to me....I change result as a win for [Player B]. [Player A] is not overly happy...At that point I went away..and after I got back...the organizers already changed result to a win for [Player A].

So the question is: if a player loses on time, but other player tells him that he can have the point....what shall the organizers do? Who gets the point? My understanding is: loss on time is a loss. And on completion of the game, result can not be changed...
Who should get the point?

[Kevin Bonham]

Under FIDE laws once a player has lost on time that's generally game over, and their opponent cannot reverse the result by, in effect, resigning. In some competitions where the winner fails to report the result of the game it is recorded as a loss for them, but that's as 0-0, not a win for the opponent.

However, assuming the incident is as described, the usual issue arises that the MCC may not be following the FIDE laws.

[Bill Gletsos]

I agree with Kevin.

BTW who was the tournament arbiter and who were the organisers who changed the result?

[MichaelBaron]

I agree with Kevin.

BTW who was the tournament arbiter and who were the organisers who changed the result?

We have 3 arbiters (including me) - never mind who changed the result. I will let him know so next time we won't have such discrepancies happening.

[Patrick Byrom]

Under FIDE laws once a player has lost on time that's generally game over, and their opponent cannot reverse the result by, in effect, resigning. In some competitions where the winner fails to report the result of the game it is recorded as a loss for them, but that's as 0-0, not a win for the opponent.

However, assuming the incident is as described, the usual issue arises that the MCC may not be following the FIDE laws.

Doesn't a win on time have to be claimed by the opponent, or at least observed by an arbiter: "6.8 A flag is considered to have fallen when the arbiter observes the fact or when either player has made a valid claim to that effect."? If a player resigns without making a claim when he's entitled to, then presumably he loses.

Although "0-0" doesn't seem an unreasonable result in the circumstances, especially as the law does seem to allow a player to claim his own flag fall

There was a previous discussion of a similar incident here.

[MichaelBaron]

Doesn't a win on time have to be claimed by the opponent, or at least observed by an arbiter: "6.8 A flag is considered to have fallen when the arbiter observes the fact or when either player has made a valid claim to that effect."? If a player resigns without making a claim when he's entitled to, then presumably he loses.

Although "0-0" doesn't seem an unreasonable result in the circumstances, especially as the law does seem to allow a player to claim his own flag fall

There was a previous discussion of a similar incident here.

There was no arbiter present next to the game at the time. Furthermore, other player already left the tournament hall by then. It only came to our attention because of the player who was playing next to them.

[Bill Gletsos]

Doesn't a win on time have to be claimed by the opponent, or at least observed by an arbiter: "6.8 A flag is considered to have fallen when the arbiter observes the fact or when either player has made a valid claim to that effect."? If a player resigns without making a claim when he's entitled to, then presumably he loses.

Although "0-0" doesn't seem an unreasonable result in the circumstances, especially as the law does seem to allow a player to claim his own flag fall

There was a previous discussion of a similar incident here.

It is clear from the above that [Player A] acknowledged he lost: “ Upon loud expressions of the great sorrow by [Player A]”
As such he should not be reporting the result as a win for him.

Even now the correct result should be recorded in Tornelo.

[Bill Gletsos]

We have 3 arbiters (including me) - never mind who changed the result. I will let him know so next time we won't have such discrepancies happening.

Let us all hope that whoever it was who changed the result is not a titled arbiter (NA, FA or IA).

[MichaelBaron]

It is clear from the above that [Player A] acknowledged he lost: “ Upon loud expressions of the great sorrow by [Player A]”
As such he should not be reporting the result as a win for him.

Even now the correct result should be recorded in Tornelo.

He did acknowledge it...but when he saw an ''opportunity'' did not want to let it go I guess .

[Kevin Bonham]

Doesn't a win on time have to be claimed by the opponent, or at least observed by an arbiter: "6.8 A flag is considered to have fallen when the arbiter observes the fact or when either player has made a valid claim to that effect."? If a player resigns without making a claim when he's entitled to, then presumably he loses.

Although "0-0" doesn't seem an unreasonable result in the circumstances, especially as the law does seem to allow a player to claim his own flag fall

Yes I'm not sure if cursing a loss on time counts as claiming it. If no arbiter saw it it's a bit weird; the player might reasonably interpret 'you can have the point anyway' (or words to that effect) as a resignation but I don't think it is. The opponent seems to be agreeing that they won the game on time but trying to give the point away.

[Patrick Byrom]

It is clear from the above that [Player A] acknowledged he lost: “ Upon loud expressions of the great sorrow by [Player A]”

As reported by a third party, not witnessed by any arbiter:

There was no arbiter present next to the game at the time. Furthermore, other player already left the tournament hall by then. It only came to our attention because of the player who was playing next to them.

If [Player A] denies that he lost on time, is there any evidence apart from the single witness?

As such he should not be reporting the result as a win for him.

If the report of his behaviour is correct, then I agree that he should have, at the very least, explained the situation to an arbiter and asked for a ruling.

[MichaelBaron]

As reported by a third party, not witnessed by any arbiter:

If [Player A] denies that he lost on time, is there any evidence apart from the single witness?

If the report of his behaviour is correct, then I agree that he should have, at the very least, explained the situation to an arbiter and asked for a ruling.

[Player A] did not deny that he ran out of time, he just claimed that his opponent agreed to a loss.

[Kevin Bonham]

Names removed

Out of an abundance of legal caution I have removed player names from this thread. Please do not use real names on this thread for players again. Anyone wishing to discuss this decision may do so in the Help and Feedback section only, and again must not use real names.

[Patrick Byrom]

[Player A] did not deny that he ran out of time, he just claimed that his opponent agreed to a loss.

Did he clarify whether his opponent had claimed a win on time at any point?

[MichaelBaron]

Did he clarify whether his opponent had claimed a win on time at any point?

No. He was eager to get that point. According to the witness, the opponent did claim time.