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  1. #1
    Illuminati Bill Gletsos's Avatar
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    firegoats clowns

    I thought I would bring over this topic from the old board.


    Re: Time for the clowns to leave the circus
    « Reply #210 on: Dec 30th, 2003, 9:15pm » Quote Modify

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Well Starter asked a question so I suppose I had better reply, I will point out that his civilised response did not really address the questions presented. Instead we get a movement around the issues typical of a politician.

    Response number 1:
    CV manages both competitions. MCC usually enters a team in one or the other.
    The host Clubs were BHCC and HBCC.
    Playoff occurred at Elwood.
    Competition format decided by host Club and Rules as per CV by-laws.
    I know what interclub is. I presume you misinterpreted what my question meant? How does a host club bid for interclub? How does it present a workable agenda to CV? How does CV decide the structure of interclub? Is their any consultation with clubs about the process? I am interested in the decision making process of your organisation CV. Is it untainted with conflicting interests?

    Question 2:
    Chessguru is an active member of the VIC chess community. He works on the CV Executive, runs two premises, has a coaching organisation, runs the Aus. Grand Prix, and the recent large SWISS.
    The point I made is that he has no problems working with CV.
    Chessguru is an individual, one singular person. I do not understand why an institutional organisation like CV pays heed to the coercive power of an individual. Now if you were talking about ChessWorld that is a different story.

    Response to question 3:
    This one is even easier.
    Clubs/bodies/commercial-enterprises bid for various events. For example WHJC is bidding for the VIC Junior. Bid proposal goes to the CV Executive (who are democratically elected by those who attend the CV AGM), and the decision is voted on.
    Fair.
    Not rocket science, and probably reflected of other State practices
    There is a problem here which is typical of Australian chess as a whole. It would be useful to consider this issue in response to question 5.

    The response to question 5 was:
    Well he has my vote firegoat.
    He stands for executive positions at Club, State and National level.
    He gets involved in some difficult tasks; like Olympiad selection meetings.
    He coaches.
    Look this is not a Jammo fan club day. The guy has contributed an incredible amount to chess and deserves his kudos.

    My arguement is not based on personal likes or dislikes, instead we ought to engage in the power structures of chess administration and how we can make them better.

    For instance, all serious institutions turn over personal to develop talent. People are trained and they eventually replace people who train them.

    For example the President of the USA is only limited to 8 year terms. This is not the case with CV.

    When people enter into politics they also MUST display openly any potential conflict of interest. Let us consider some people who have served CV.

    Did you know that GW and Jammo are life members of MCC. Does this equate to fair decision making for other clubs? Is it wise to have somebody so heavily involved in a private business like Chessguru deciding policy for CV? Is this fair to Chessideas or Chessed? Do the people concerned with democratic decision making of CV openly refuse to vote on such issues, where any potential conflict arises?

  2. #2
    Illuminati Bill Gletsos's Avatar
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    My response was:

    Re: Time for the clowns to leave the circus
    « Reply #211 on: Dec 30th, 2003, 10:09pm » Quote Modify

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    firegoat just so you have a means of comparison, I'll tell you how things are done in NSW.
    Remember in NSW players are the members of the NSWCA not clubs as in Victoria.

    on Dec 30th, 2003, 9:15pm, firegoat7 wrote:I know what interclub is. I presume you misinterpreted what my question meant? How does a host club bid for interclub? How does it present a workable agenda to CV? How does CV decide the structure of interclub? Is their any consultation with clubs about the process? I am interested in the decision making process of your organisation CV. Is it untainted with conflicting interests?
    The NSWCA runs its Grade Matches (Interclub) directly.
    Teams consist of 4 players and teams are entered by clubs into various rating divisions e.g Open, U2000, U1800, U1600, U1400. The players on board 1 is allowed to exceeed the division limit by no more than 50 points.

    on Dec 30th, 2003, 9:15pm, firegoat7 wrote:Chessguru is an individual, one singular person. I do not understand why an institutional organisation like CV pays heed to the coercive power of an individual. Now if you were talking about ChessWorld that is a different story.
    I'm not sure we have any similar situation in NSW at this time. In the past Peter parr had been a NSWCA Council member and past NSW President. However whenever an issue that affected him directly was voted on he abstained from voting.


    on Dec 30th, 2003, 9:15pm, firegoat7 wrote:Response to question 3:
    There is a problem here which is typical of Australian chess as a whole. It would be useful to consider this issue in response to question 5.

    The NSWCA Council runs all its tournaments directly. It determines the structure, prize fund, entry fees and who the arbiter will be. Some NSW torurnaments are run at Leagues Clubs which are the homes of thier respective Chess Club, however there is no monetary inducement or benfit to these chess clubs or their parent Leagues clubs.


    on Dec 30th, 2003, 9:15pm, firegoat7 wrote:The response to question 5 was: Look this is not a Jammo fan club day. The guy has contributed an incredible amount to chess and deserves his kudos.

    My arguement is not based on personal likes or dislikes, instead we ought to engage in the power structures of chess administration and how we can make them better.

    For instance, all serious institutions turn over personal to develop talent. People are trained and they eventually replace people who train them.

    For example the President of the USA is only limited to 8 year terms. This is not the case with CV.

    When people enter into politics they also MUST display openly any potential conflict of interest. Let us consider some people who have served CV.

    Did you know that GW and Jammo are life members of MCC. Does this equate to fair decision making for other clubs? Is it wise to have somebody so heavily involved in a private business like Chessguru deciding policy for CV? Is this fair to Chessideas or Chessed? Do the people concerned with democratic decision making of CV openly refuse to vote on such issues, where any potential conflict arises?

    There was a time when the US President was ot retsricted to 2 terms. Also in many other democracies around the world their is no restriction of the term of office bearers, so I dont think this is relevant to your argument.

    As for the NSWCA Council there would be a number of Council members over the years who have been life members of their respective Chess Clubs, however this has not been nor been seen to be a problem.

    I can recall in the past various times when a member of the NSW Council may have abstained from a vote because of a possible conflict of interest.

    Hope the above answers are beneficial.

  3. #3
    Illuminati Bill Gletsos's Avatar
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    starter replied:

    Re: Time for the clowns to leave the circus
    « Reply #212 on: Dec 31st, 2003, 7:32am »

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    on Dec 30th, 2003, 9:15pm, firegoat7 wrote:Well Starter asked a question so I suppose I had better reply, I will point out that his civilised response did not really address the questions presented. Instead we get a movement around the issues typical of a politician.
    Firegoat, the only reason there is ‘movement around the issues’ is that the starting point of the discussion was 4 lines of derisive laughter from you. We could only guess at what you were laughing at. Now that it is narrowing down to something to do with ‘conflicting interests’ or ‘conflicts of interest’ we are beginning to be able to assist you. Thanks to Bill’s post you now know how NSW manages administrative agendas, as do probably 1000 chess organisations around the world. It is mundane not scary, boring not conspiratorial, necessary not avoidable.

    on Dec 30th, 2003, 9:15pm, firegoat7 wrote:


    Response number 1:
    CV manages both competitions. MCC usually enters a team in one or the other.
    The host Clubs were BHCC and HBCC.
    Playoff occurred at Elwood.
    Competition format decided by host Club and Rules as per CV by-laws.
    I know what interclub is. I presume you misinterpreted what my question meant? How does a host club bid for interclub? How does it present a workable agenda to CV?

    Bids are called for at the AGM. And periodically in Gary Lycett’s weekly CV e-mailed newsletter.
    Write your bid on Gazza’s form.
    Bid format is what you like or believe in. For example, BHCC bids for a weekly competition held on Fridays. On the other hand, CV prefers a fortnightly competition.

    on Dec 30th, 2003, 9:15pm, firegoat7 wrote:

    How does CV decide the structure of interclub?
    There is a shortage of bidders. So, usually a single host club bid wins. CV has nothing to decide.

    on Dec 30th, 2003, 9:15pm, firegoat7 wrote:
    Is their any consultation with clubs about the process? I am interested in the decision making process of your organisation CV.
    Again, there is not much need for CV decision-making…they get limited bids; one or two.

    on Dec 30th, 2003, 9:15pm, firegoat7 wrote:
    Is it untainted with conflicting interests?
    Impossible. And as I argued in yesterday’s post, not even desirable

    on Dec 30th, 2003, 9:15pm, firegoat7 wrote:

    Question 2:
    Chessguru is an active member of the VIC chess community. He works on the CV Executive, runs two premises, has a coaching organisation, runs the Aus. Grand Prix, and the recent large SWISS.
    The point I made is that he has no problems working with CV.
    Chessguru is an individual, one singular person. I do not understand why an institutional organisation like CV pays heed to the coercive power of an individual. Now if you were talking about ChessWorld that is a different story.
    Individuals are great contributors to our chess community. I suggest you re-read Bill’s excellent comments on Peter Parr to become convinced .

    on Dec 30th, 2003, 9:15pm, firegoat7 wrote:


    Response to question 3:
    This one is even easier.
    Clubs/bodies/commercial-enterprises bid for various events. For example WHJC is bidding for the VIC Junior. Bid proposal goes to the CV Executive (who are democratically elected by those who attend the CV AGM), and the decision is voted on.
    Fair.
    Not rocket science, and probably reflected of other State practices

    There is a problem here which is typical of Australian chess as a whole. It would be useful to consider this issue in response to question 5.

    The response to question 5 was:
    Well he has my vote firegoat.
    He stands for executive positions at Club, State and National level.
    He gets involved in some difficult tasks; like Olympiad selection meetings.
    He coaches.
    Look this is not a Jammo fan club day. The guy has contributed an incredible amount to chess and deserves his kudos.

    My argument is not based on personal likes or dislikes, instead we ought to engage in the power structures of chess administration and how we can make them better.

    For instance, all serious institutions turn over personal to develop talent. People are trained and they eventually replace people who train them.

    For example the President of the USA is only limited to 8 year terms. This is not the case with CV.


    Of course CV is going to be short of new talent when we have the richest most stable Club (MCC) not sending delegates to the AGM nor standing for election. We need either RMcC, EM, MP, DB, MR, Ju BB, or one of at least 6 other competent MCC administrators to pitch and stand for election.

    on Dec 30th, 2003, 9:15pm, firegoat7 wrote:


    When people enter into politics they also MUST display openly any potential conflict of interest. Let us consider some people who have served CV.

    Did you know that GW and Jammo are life members of MCC. Does this equate to fair decision making for other clubs?
    Both have my full confidence. Yes, other clubs think this fair.

    on Dec 30th, 2003, 9:15pm, firegoat7 wrote:
    Is it wise to have somebody so heavily involved in a private business like Chessguru deciding policy for CV?
    Yes. See Bill’s comments on PP; as to how it works successfully.

    on Dec 30th, 2003, 9:15pm, firegoat7 wrote:
    Is this fair to Chessideas or Chessed?
    Chess Ideas and Chess Ed need to have their agenda points represented, yes. But if they don’t make the effort then you can hardly expect the rest of us to reject the energetic efforts put in by ChessGuru. We are not flush with volunteering talent.

  4. #4
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    Re: firegoats clowns

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Gletsos
    I thought I would bring over this topic from the old board.

    Bill

    Thanks for doing this.
    BTW will firegoat have access to a CODE button on this new BB?

    starter

  5. #5
    chmod -x /bin/chmod
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    Yes, why do you ask?[code:1]cascadasdtweawrhaewrg[/code:1]

  6. #6
    CC Grandmaster Garvinator's Avatar
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    because instead of using the quote button that everyone on here uses, he would use the code function, i think just to annoy us

  7. #7
    Illuminati Bill Gletsos's Avatar
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    Re: firegoats clowns

    Quote Originally Posted by starter
    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Gletsos
    I thought I would bring over this topic from the old board.

    Bill

    Thanks for doing this.
    No problem.
    I figured I might as well do something useful in amongst the arguments.

  8. #8
    chmod -x /bin/chmod
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    Quote Originally Posted by ggrayggray
    because instead of using the quote button that everyone on here uses, he would use the code function, i think just to annoy us
    What ever happened to free speech

  9. #9
    Illuminati Bill Gletsos's Avatar
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    We weren't stopping him from doing it, we just said it was annoying.
    The Force can have a strong influence on the weak-minded.
    Mos Eisley spaceport The toolbox. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy.

  10. #10
    chmod -x /bin/chmod
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    Ok whatever.

  11. #11
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    With quote pyramids enabled, there is no reason to use code in quoting. However it is not a major issue if someone does.

  12. #12
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    Firegoat

    "Do we really want Jammo to return to the fold? or does he represent a conflicting interest?" - Firegoat


    Dear Mr.Firegoat,

    Whilst I haven’t posted to the bulletin board for some time I often read the latest posts to see what the average chess player is thinking about, particularly in relation to the ACF or CV.

    If someone posts a comment about the ACF or CV it may be interesting, but if the comment is posted under a penname than it is hard to give the remarks any credibility.

    If however we know who they are posted by then we must decide what weight to give their comments based on our knowledge of the person. If, for instance, Jenni Oliver says something about junior chess then it’s certainly worth considering.

    Now, when you first started posting under then penname “firegoat” I just presumed that your remarks were just the ill-informed ravings of one of the one of those characters who hangs around the outside of the Melbourne Chess Club Inc. smoking, drinking and waiting for their next dole cheque to arrive.

    Subsequently it became apparent that “firegoat” was in fact D.Beaumont, a former President of the MCC so I had to decide what weight I would give your remarks.

    Unfortunately I have had few dealings with D.Beaumont on which to base my opinion. They are as follows:

    1. I think we have played chess but once, and (from memory) you lasted about 14 moves ……….. so regrettably I do not have a very high opinion of your chess abilities.

    2. I was fortunate to be at the Doeberl Cup one year to witness first hand the implementation of your dispute resolution procedures which most people are probably now familiar with.

    3. I had the misfortune to be at the prize-giving ceremony of a recent Australian Championships held at the Melbourne Town Hall which turned out to be the most embarrassing chess event I have ever attended. One of the low lights was the speech by the President of The Melbourne Chess Club (in front of the sponsors and Melbourne City Council officials) who unfortunately seemed to have partaken too freely of the free refreshments available at the back of the room.

    Based on the above, regrettably I am not able to give your views any credibility whatever.

    Finally, I’m reminded of a phrase from the bible along the lines of “by their deeds shall ye know them.”

    I can remember when the Melbourne Chess Club Inc. was a highly respected club with a judge as President and around 250 – 300 members. Nowadays I understand that the MCC has around 70 members; recently the ACF had to suspend all services from the MCC until it paid its bills to the ACF, and now Chess Victoria Inc. has had to suspend all services from the MCC until it pays its bills to CV. Further the MCC cannot be bothered to even send a delegate to the CV AGM. Unfortunately in recent years there haven’t been many people involved in running the MCC who actually know how to run things properly. Even little things like knowing that you have to have your ABN on official notices get overlooked. These days people can play at nice, clean, modern venues like Chess Kids or Box Hill Chess Club Inc so why would they bother going to the MCC? Perhaps you should spend more time getting your own act together rather than criticising the ACF or CV.

    Maybe you don’t want Jammo to return to the fold but at least Jammo knows what he is doing and has a successful track record behind him. When you have done something in chess successfully yourself people will take more notice of your views.

    -Jammo



  13. #13
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Looks like we've just got ourselves another firegoat extinguisher.

  14. #14
    Illuminati Bill Gletsos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    Looks like we've just got ourselves another firegoat extinguisher.
    It certainly looks that way.

    It was good to get Roberts's perspective. =D>

  15. #15
    Account Permanently Banned PHAT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Gletsos
    It was good to get Roberts's perspective. =D>
    Ahh, but would it still have been as good had he not been antiFG7?

    A case of my enemy's enemy is my friend - for now.

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