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  1. #16
    CC Grandmaster antichrist's Avatar
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    In game circumstances if the pawn promotion resulted in a great imbalance of white and dark squares Bishops then maybe knights only would defeat bishops only.
    Zionism is racism as defined by the UN, Israel by every dirty means available steals land and water, kill Palestinian freedom fighters and civilians, and operates an apartheid system to drive more Palestinians off their land

  2. #17
    CC Grandmaster Desmond's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    Thanks. It does seem like there is no stopping the Ns from slowly crowding out the K, and the Qs can't do much.

    Korchnoi noted that the board is rather too small for even two queens, as per his comments on a 1994 win over Karpov, because long before, he only drew with the relative unknown vs E German (1962), despite obtaining two queens. Korchnoi explained:

    During the analysis, I discovered something very remarkable: the board is simply too small for two Queens of the same color. They only get in each other's way. I realize that this might sound stupid, but I fully mean it. The advantage is much less than one would expect by counting material.
    I think that the queen is very effective when it can combine with other pieces. So while 2 queens might not be able to achieve much against a herd of knights, maybe QBBN or QNNN (for example) would do better.
    So what's your excuse? For running like the devil's chasing you?

    See you in another life, brotha.

  3. #18
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Desmond View Post
    I think that the queen is very effective when it can combine with other pieces. So while 2 queens might not be able to achieve much against a herd of knights, maybe QBBN or QNNN (for example) would do better.
    I think you are right. Even if they might not win, drawing should be easy just by swapping off the minors.
    “The history of the 20th century is full of examples of countries that set out to redistribute wealth and ended up redistributing poverty.”
    “There’s no point blaming the tragedies of socialism on the flaws or corruption of particular leaders. Any system which allows some people to exercise unbridled power over others is an open invitation to abuse, whether that system is called slavery or socialism or something else.”—Thomas Sowell

  4. #19
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by antichrist View Post
    In game circumstances if the pawn promotion resulted in a great imbalance of white and dark squares Bishops then maybe knights only would defeat bishops only.
    It doesn't seem so because the knights move from one square to another, which means the bishops can blockade a few diagonals and keep them from breaking through in groups.

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    In this case white is me, not the computer, trying to exercise a stay-off-the-bishops'-squares strategy, and failing:

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  5. #20
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    These seem to be an exception to the smaller units winning.
    Last edited by Kevin Bonham; 29-02-2020 at 10:04 PM.
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  6. #21
    CC Grandmaster Desmond's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham View Post
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    These seem to be an exception to the smaller units winning.
    Just fixed the first one by adding = on move 76. Not sure about the second one, maybe because it starts on move 2. I tried changing the last FEN digit to 2 but didn't seem to fix it.

    I was wondering, if we were to have a tournament with this sort of piece imbalance how would you choose the pieces? Would we say let each player choose their pieces one by one, so they can react and adjust to what the opponent does? So white places a pieces, then black places one, and so on. If the opponent is going for a knight heavy army, you might counter with lots of bishops, for example. Just thinking otherwise you might run into a rock-paper-scissors scenario, where say piece configuration A is better than B, but worse than configuration C.
    Last edited by Kevin Bonham; 29-02-2020 at 10:08 PM.
    So what's your excuse? For running like the devil's chasing you?

    See you in another life, brotha.

  7. #22
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Desmond View Post
    Just fixed the first one by adding = on move 76. Not sure about the second one, maybe because it starts on move 2. I tried changing the last FEN digit to 2 but didn't seem to fix it.
    Fixed now - firstly there was an erroneous bracket and secondly for some reason the second one copied with the wrong move number in the FEN.

    I was wondering, if we were to have a tournament with this sort of piece imbalance how would you choose the pieces? Would we say let each player choose their pieces one by one, so they can react and adjust to what the opponent does? So white places a pieces, then black places one, and so on. If the opponent is going for a knight heavy army, you might counter with lots of bishops, for example. Just thinking otherwise you might run into a rock-paper-scissors scenario, where say piece configuration A is better than B, but worse than configuration C.
    Yes that's quite possible with any game that involves blind choices; there might not be an optimum strategy that is independent of what the opponent does.
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  8. #23
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Adding pawns can slow down the battle and make the games look more chesslike but it is impressive how inexorably the minors still prevail:

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  9. #24
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    4B v Q, with a pair on each colour, seems easier than 4 N v Q, although it can take over 50 moves. For one thing, 2 Bs of opposite colours can mate while 2Ns can't force mate. E.g. the following is DTZ 63 with White to move; with Black to move he has a perpetual.

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    Last edited by Capablanca-Fan; 02-03-2020 at 12:03 PM.
    “The history of the 20th century is full of examples of countries that set out to redistribute wealth and ended up redistributing poverty.”
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  10. #25
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    I was feeling a bit sorry for the two queens in the previous game I posted so I gave them a little helper. They got there with the theoretical five-point advantage ... but only just.

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    I have never seen the ending KQ vs KBN in real life. It would be interesting to try winning it over the board.
    Last edited by Kevin Bonham; 02-03-2020 at 12:30 PM.
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  11. #26
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Surely of no practical value whatsoever but some positions with KQ vs KBBBB where the Bs are all on the same colour squares are wins for the KQ even if they are nowhere near the opposing pieces at the start and there is no quick gain of material.
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  12. #27
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham View Post
    Surely of no practical value whatsoever but some positions with KQ vs KBBBB where the Bs are all on the same colour squares are wins for the KQ even if they are nowhere near the opposing pieces at the start and there is no quick gain of material.
    Interesting to test out. E.g. this position is drawn, and there are hardly any place where an only move must be found:

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    So it seems that Black can make a fortress in the corner of the same colour B. Actually, 3Bs are enough for a draw:

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    This makes some sense of the tablebase analysis in other lines of the Q v 4B: the KQ side must prevent Black's K from the same-coloured corner. If he can, then mate can eventually be forced. E.g. in this one, the side with the Q is winning with DTZ 67:

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    This only move is presumably the only one to keep the K from the safe corner. Eventually, it ended with the following position where Black can't avoid mate; the Bs are colourblind:

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    Last edited by Capablanca-Fan; 03-03-2020 at 07:32 AM.
    “The history of the 20th century is full of examples of countries that set out to redistribute wealth and ended up redistributing poverty.”
    “There’s no point blaming the tragedies of socialism on the flaws or corruption of particular leaders. Any system which allows some people to exercise unbridled power over others is an open invitation to abuse, whether that system is called slavery or socialism or something else.”—Thomas Sowell

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