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  1. #1
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    Different piece value combinations (NB not normal chess)

    From Chessexpress: "So if you had the choice, instead of the traditional arrangement of pieces, what would you spend your 39 points on? All Queens? All Smalls? or something in between?"

    Can I have a Queen on a2 and a Queen on f2, please - I would be unbeatable as White against the conventional arrangement!

  2. #2
    CC Grandmaster antichrist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    From Chessexpress: "So if you had the choice, instead of the traditional arrangement of pieces, what would you spend your 39 points on? All Queens? All Smalls? or something in between?"

    Can I have a Queen on a2 and a Queen on f2, please - I would be unbeatable as White against the conventional arrangement!
    But how would your queens go against a sack full of knights? If 3+ knights to a queen I would love to see that. I presume it could be set up in a computer.
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  3. #3
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by antichrist View Post
    But how would your queens go against a sack full of knights? If 3+ knights to a queen I would love to see that. I presume it could be set up in a computer.
    I set up a position with K+2Q vs K+6N (each side in one corner) and let Stockfish play against itself at 10 secs/move. Before too long white gave up one queen for two knights and reached this position (white to move)

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    ...which is actually a tablebase win for the four knights, although it takes them more than 50 moves. And apparently the four knights win in nearly 40% of random positions.

    K+Q vs K+3N is generally a draw (you just sac the queen for one of them and it's drawn), but K+2Q vs K+6N might not be.
    Last edited by Kevin Bonham; 15-02-2020 at 10:31 PM.
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    CC Grandmaster antichrist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham View Post
    I set up a position with K+2Q vs K+6N (each side in one corner) and let Stockfish play against itself at 10 secs/move. Before too long white gave up one queen for two knights and reached this position (white to move)

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    ...which is actually a tablebase win for the four knights, although it takes them more than 50 moves. And apparently the four knights win in nearly 40% of random positions.

    K+Q vs K+3N is generally a draw (you just sac the queen for one of them and it's drawn), but K+2Q vs K+6N might not be.
    Thanks, just as I thought. I love knights in the right hands. Wonder how 6 Bishops would fair in similar circumstances. Very different concept .

    Now imagine 2 queens against 18 pawns??? And pawns being allowed to promote
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    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by antichrist View Post
    Wonder how 6 Bishops would fair in similar circumstances. Very different concept .
    The experiment with 2Q vs 6N wasn't very robust (maybe if I look at more I'll find more chances for the queens) but I think that with 2Q vs 6B unless the queens can win material or force a draw or mate very quickly they will lose (though maybe not within the 50 move draw rule). Here's an example:

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    I can't do 18 pawns, it won't let me.
    Last edited by Kevin Bonham; 15-02-2020 at 11:50 PM.
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    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    This is 2Q vs 6N where I overrode it whenever it tried to give up a queen for two knights. The knights are really dangerous once they work together.

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    Last edited by Kevin Bonham; 16-02-2020 at 10:50 AM.
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  7. #7
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    I reckon 3R vs 5N is a draw but once you make a few or all of the pieces bishops the pieces start often winning with best play. Though with 3R vs 5B the rooks can draw if they can sacrifice themselves in a way that leaves all the remaining bishops on the same colour squares, and the side with the bishops has to watch out for this.
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    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham View Post
    This is 2Q vs 6N where I overrode it whenever it tried to give up a queen for two knights. The knights are really dangerous once they work together.

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    White might prolong with 13. Qa7+ then 14. Qda1.
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  9. #9
    CC Grandmaster antichrist's Avatar
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    As we are in the days of eliminating discrimination when promoting a pawn we should have the choice of any combo of pieces with a total value In theory there could be more pieces than squares so no go
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    CC Grandmaster antichrist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham View Post
    The experiment with 2Q vs 6N wasn't very robust (maybe if I look at more I'll find more chances for the queens) but I think that with 2Q vs 6B unless the queens can win material or force a draw or mate very quickly they will lose (though maybe not within the 50 move draw rule). Here's an example:

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    I can't do 18 pawns, it won't let me.
    If it was 16 pieces set up in diamond formation they may have a chance against 2 queens.
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  11. #11
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    White might prolong with 13. Qa7+ then 14. Qda1.
    I assumed it was saying -20 or so on account of the queen fork but that wasn't the case, so I've edited the post and added in some more moves.

    More silliness:

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    While 3R vs 5N is a draw because each rook can give itself up for one knight, 6R vs 10N is probably lost because 6R would have to exchange themselves for 8N and it seems the Ns will avoid this if they stick together.
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  12. #12
    CC Grandmaster antichrist's Avatar
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    More silliness? Playing many too knights manually makes one crazy. Sure knights are the greatest of pieces when played expertly
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    Nice horsing around!

  14. #14
    CC Grandmaster antichrist's Avatar
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    If you can't play knights like a champion then you can't really love the game because you don't know the game. Once knights are off the board it almost becomes boring. There is no magic.
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    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham View Post
    I assumed it was saying -20 or so on account of the queen fork but that wasn't the case, so I've edited the post and added in some more moves.
    Thanks. It does seem like there is no stopping the Ns from slowly crowding out the K, and the Qs can't do much.

    Korchnoi noted that the board is rather too small for even two queens, as per his comments on a 1994 win over Karpov, because long before, he only drew with the relative unknown vs E German (1962), despite obtaining two queens. Korchnoi explained:

    During the analysis, I discovered something very remarkable: the board is simply too small for two Queens of the same color. They only get in each other's way. I realize that this might sound stupid, but I fully mean it. The advantage is much less than one would expect by counting material.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham View Post
    More silliness:
    I thought these were interesting exercises.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham View Post
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    I must admit being surprised that an equal number of Bs and Ns ended in a win for the Bs. I would not have been surprised if 10B beat 9 N, because 2B v N is a theoretical win albeit sometimes longer than 50 moves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham View Post
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    Here again, playing through quickly, I wondered why Black kept giving up R for N, but then, where could these Rs go? The board becomes too crowded for them, and the combined Ns control lots of squares.
    Last edited by Capablanca-Fan; 20-02-2020 at 02:17 AM.
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