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  1. #2356
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    We can be either positive or negative but just like with chess, position remains the same irrespective of our assessment . I just want to see moving to ''Covid Normal'' . Our society has to accept (wish we would not have to) heart decease, cancer etc. Given the vaccination + less dramatic (overall) impact on society + people understanding they need to be careful and responsible - I do not see why we can not accept ''covid normal''. But waiting to hear from the government...
    I think that we agree that at some stage we need to live with the Covid-19 virus. However, the more Covid circulating in the community, the more opportunity for new, perhaps more infectious and more lethal strains.

    The question is what balance do we accept between higher levels of vaccination, restrictions and quarantine on the one side, and more Covid circulating, more Covid deaths and more Covid long illness on the other.

    I don't have the answer, but I do know that the quicker people are vaccinated, the more careful people are in their interactions and more effective quarantine procedures can only help.

    When Singapore gets to 2/3 vaccinated and moves to its 'live with Covid' plan, I hope that it works and provides a model for success, but Australia is currently a long way from achieving that level of vaccination. That's not because Australians are stupid or short-sighted. It's because the Australian government through incompetence or bad luck (take your choice depending on your political point of view), to this point, has not been able to provide an adequate vaccination program.

  2. #2357
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    Quote Originally Posted by Socrates View Post
    When Singapore gets to 2/3 vaccinated and moves to its 'live with Covid' plan, I hope that it works and provides a model for success, but Australia is currently a long way from achieving that level of vaccination. That's not because Australians are stupid or short-sighted.
    I agree. There is no reason to suspect that Sinaporeans are more inclined to vaccinate than aussies. For instance, both countries have a 95% vaccination rate with the MMR vaccine.

    It's because the Australian government through incompetence or bad luck (take your choice depending on your political point of view), to this point, has not been able to provide an adequate vaccination program.
    When the people of Australia get vaccinated, it is despite Scotty from Marketing, not because of him. Scotty from Marketing is just blundering from one pork barrel scandal to the next. He'd rather build carparks in suburbs that don't exist yet than build a robust vaccination program.
    So what's your excuse? To run like the devil's chasing you.

    See you in another life, brotha.

  3. #2358
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    https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-p...9eTcTvkv-P9Rqs
    In the meantime 90% plus vaccination rate in Beijing....of course they are a totalitarian country...so I am sure we as democracy are much better of...
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  4. #2359
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-p...9eTcTvkv-P9Rqs
    In the meantime 90% plus vaccination rate in Beijing....of course they are a totalitarian country...
    Which is a good reason not to trust their data.
    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    so I am sure we as democracy are much better of...
    The rate outside Beijing is not so great: "The northern province of Shanxi said 46.7% of its adults have received two doses as of July 20 while the full inoculation rate for adults in the eastern Zhejiang was 49.8% by July 19."

    And Chinese vaccines have not been as effective as Western ones: "But in recent weeks, concerns have grown about their efficacy. Now, some Asian countries which made Chinese vaccines a key plank in their immunisation programmes have announced they will use other jabs."

  5. #2360
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    Which is a good reason not to trust their data. The rate outside Beijing is not so great: "The northern province of Shanxi said 46.7% of its adults have received two doses as of July 20 while the full inoculation rate for adults in the eastern Zhejiang was 49.8% by July 19."

    And Chinese vaccines have not been as effective as Western ones: "But in recent weeks, concerns have grown about their efficacy. Now, some Asian countries which made Chinese vaccines a key plank in their immunisation programmes have announced they will use other jabs."
    You do not trust Reuters am I right? you do not have to trust it...but just some food for thought...
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  6. #2361
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    China's capital Beijing has fully vaccinated nearly 91% of its adult residents against COVID-19, data from the municipal government showed, as the country expands its nationwide vaccination efforts.

    Some 17.7 million people, or 90.8% of adult residents in Beijing, had been inoculated as of July 21, city authorities said on Thursday via social media. That accounts for roughly 80.8% of its total population of 21.9 million.
    Reuters is only reporting what it has been told, it has not independently verified that the figures are correct. I trust Reuters is accurately reporting what has been said but that does not prover whether what has been said is true or not.

  7. #2362
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Colliver View Post
    Reuters is only reporting what it has been told, it has not independently verified that the figures are correct. I trust Reuters is accurately reporting what has been said but that does not prover whether what has been said is true or not.
    so does it mean the number is 40% or 88% even if 90% is not accurate? . Do we believe what we are told in the news in Australia or ask for fact check? for instance Andrews kept on telling Victorians he is acting ''upon medical advice'' but never produced the actual advice for people to see.
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  8. #2363
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    so does it mean the number is 40% or 88% even if 90% is not accurate? . Do we believe what we are told in the news in Australia or ask for fact check? for instance Andrews kept on telling Victorians he is acting ''upon medical advice'' but never produced the actual advice for people to see.
    How exactly do I fact check the statistics provided by the Chinese government? On the other hand, I can provide plenty of independent medical advice that supports what Andrews did - this for example.

  9. #2364
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    so does it mean the number is 40% or 88% even if 90% is not accurate? . Do we believe what we are told in the news in Australia or ask for fact check? for instance Andrews kept on telling Victorians he is acting ''upon medical advice'' but never produced the actual advice for people to see.
    In this case the number might well be accurate but the Chinese government and other authorities in China are harder to believe than normal because of the style of the government. For example they deny do anything wrong with the Uyghurs even though they are commiting atrocities against them.

    As for Andrews, I have told you before the medical advise comes from Brett Sutton and his team. Sutton appears at press conferences and answers questions regularly so the advice is there to see. It is the same in every state where the Chief medical officer appears at COVID updates.

  10. #2365
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Colliver View Post
    In this case the number might well be accurate but the Chinese government and other authorities in China are harder to believe than normal because of the style of the government. For example they deny do anything wrong with the Uyghurs even though they are commiting atrocities against them.

    As for Andrews, I have told you before the medical advise comes from Brett Sutton and his team. Sutton appears at press conferences and answers questions regularly so the advice is there to see. It is the same in every state where the Chief medical officer appears at COVID updates.
    https://www.theaustralian.com.au/bre...3a7566ec119721
    Flashback from last year, this is how the decisions were made...
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  11. #2366
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    https://www.theaustralian.com.au/bre...3a7566ec119721
    Flashback from last year, this is how the decisions were made...
    Well then he did not say he acted on medical advise. When he says he has operated on medical advice it is advice from Brett Sutton and his team.
    Last edited by Scott Colliver; 30-07-2021 at 12:22 AM.

  12. #2367
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    https://theconversation.com/zero-cov...vBBWV8FdBr030Y
    Something I have been talking about all along...
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  13. #2368
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    https://theconversation.com/zero-cov...vBBWV8FdBr030Y
    Something I have been talking about all along...
    The federal government and national cabinet has made an effort to address some of these concerns in the announcement Prime Minister Scott Morrison made today that there will be a 4 phase way out of the current situation. It is dependent on the percentage of the population vaccinated.
    We are in Phase A
    We go to Phase B at 70% vaccinated
    We got to Phase C at 80% vaccinated
    Then we go to Phase D at some stage after that.

    I suggest you do some reading on what was announced and make your mind up whether it is good or bad.

  14. #2369
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Colliver View Post
    The federal government and national cabinet has made an effort to address some of these concerns in the announcement Prime Minister Scott Morrison made today that there will be a 4 phase way out of the current situation. It is dependent on the percentage of the population vaccinated.
    We are in Phase A
    We go to Phase B at 70% vaccinated
    We got to Phase C at 80% vaccinated
    Then we go to Phase D at some stage after that.

    I suggest you do some reading on what was announced and make your mind up whether it is good or bad.
    I read about it today. I would not wait for 70% but my concern is ...when and how it will be reached and furthermore, we have to bear in mind, we've got ''states'' and got national election coming up and if Labor wins and their leaders is as ignorant as Andrews...it is not clear whether there won't be another change of plans.
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  15. #2370
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    I read about it today. I would not wait for 70% but my concern is ...when and how it will be reached and furthermore, we have to bear in mind, we've got ''states'' and got national election coming up and if Labor wins and their leaders is as ignorant as Andrews...it is not clear whether there won't be another change of plans.
    I heard some thought about March next year to go to Phase C which is when a lot of things open up and lockdowns are expected to be highly unlikely.

    Since the Victorian second wave where Andrews and his government clearly erred in their poor implementation of the hotel quarantine which cost over 700 lives I feel the Victorian government has done well in implementing lockdowns that have controlled outbreaks quickly and brought the cases back to zero. As long as the Prime Minister follows advice from the Chief Medical Officer and his team I don't think that they will go far astray from reasonable actions to control the virus. Where the federal government has failed has been in the vaccine rollout and a Labor government could not do any worse in that regard.
    Last edited by Scott Colliver; 30-07-2021 at 11:27 PM.

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