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  1. #1
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    "Sin" and who is to blame for it

    From SSM thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by Adamski View Post
    The short answer here is that God does not create or cause sin. It always comes ultimately from satan.
    An unsatisfactory answer since if God "exists" in the manner supposed by Christianity then either (i) God created Satan and, being all knowing, thereby knowingly caused all sin caused by Satan or (ii) if God somehow did not create Satan, God being all powerful could destroy Satan at any moment and therefore by failing to do so causes Satan to continue to generate sin, and hence causes all sin caused by Satan. In either case, God is responsible for the existence of "sin"; this is inescapable and the only question is whether there is sufficient excuse for God causing to choose "sin" to exist.

    The comments in the SSM thread also raise the issue of religious figures declaring they can't do something because it is a "sin". In the case of same-sex marriage, the argument against allowing it (while allowing mixed-sex marriage) doesn't stand up if you assume that either there is no God or that any God that exists is not as described in religious traditions. So ultimately this particular supposed "sin" isn't sin because it could defensibly be independently considered morally bad, it's "sin" because God is believed not to like it.

    When a cleric says they can't bless something just because it is "sin", what they're saying is that to bless it would be to disobey God. But if God isn't independently morally good, then the only reason not to disobey God when it will improve people's lives and grant them fairness to do so, is that God will punish such actions by sending some or all of those involved to Hell (or denying them Heaven, etc).

    When a cleric determines that the only reason not to do something is that God will punish them even though it would otherwise be the right thing to do, that should give them cause to reflect on the strength of the evidence that such an unjust God is actually really like that. As it turns out there is no such evidence whatsoever, because assuming there is an all-knowing all-powerful being then any apparent evidence however strong could be a fabrication created by such a being whose characteristics differ from what the cleric thought God was like.
    Last edited by Kevin Bonham; 16-10-2019 at 05:17 PM.

  2. #2
    CC Grandmaster Adamski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham View Post
    From SSM thread:



    An unsatisfactory answer since if God "exists" in the manner supposed by Christianity then either (i) God created Satan and, being all knowing, thereby knowingly caused all sin caused by Satan or (ii) if God somehow did not create Satan, God being all powerful could destroy Satan at any moment and therefore by failing to do so causes Satan to continue to generate sin, and hence causes all sin caused by Satan. In either case, God is responsible for the existence of "sin"; this is inescapable and the only question is whether there is sufficient excuse for God causing to choose "sin" to exist.

    The comments in the SSM thread also raise the issue of religious figures declaring they can't do something because it is a "sin". In the case of same-sex marriage, the argument against allowing it (while allowing mixed-sex marriage) doesn't stand up if you assume that either there is no God or that any God that exists is not as described in religious traditions. So ultimately this particular supposed "sin" isn't sin because it could defensibly be independently considered morally bad, it's "sin" because God is believed not to like it.

    When a cleric says they can't bless something just because it is "sin", what they're saying is that to bless it would be to disobey God. But if God isn't independently morally good, then the only reason not to disobey God when it will improve people's lives and grant them fairness to do so, is that God will punish such actions by sending some or all of those involved to Hell (or denying them Heaven, etc).

    When a cleric determines that the only reason not to do something is that God will punish them even though it would otherwise be the right thing to do, that should give them cause to reflect on the strength of the evidence that such an unjust God is actually really like that. As it turns out there is no such evidence whatsoever, because assuming there is an all-knowing all-powerful being then any apparent evidence however strong could be a fabrication created by such a being whose characteristics differ from what the cleric thought God was like.
    To respond to this in full would be to repeat territory covered comprehensively already in the "Does God exist?" thread. So for now anyway I will pass. Other Christians, or theists, however, are welcome to respond to KB's challenge.
    God exists. Short and to the point.

    Secretary of, and regularly arbiter at, Rooty Hill RSL Chess Club. See www.rootyhillchessclub.org.

    Psephological insight. "Controversial will only lose you votes. Courageous will lose you the election." Sir Humphrey Appleby on Yes Minister.

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  3. #3
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Moderation Notice

    antichrist is permanently banned from mentioning Donald Trump without moderator permission (which can be requested at most once per month) outside the politics section, the Coffee Lounge and, for the time being, the shoutbox.
    Last edited by Kevin Bonham; 17-10-2019 at 09:49 AM.

  4. #4
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adamski View Post
    To respond to this in full would be to repeat territory covered comprehensively already in the "Does God exist?" thread.
    I strongly suspect most if not all of this has been discussed there, but if you think anything there actually refutes my comments, please provide exact post numbers. I would hate to have missed out on anything!

    When religious people go around calling people's loving relationships and desire to formalise them "sin" then they have to expect that I will go around calling their beliefs nonsense and pointing out why they are nonsense.

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