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  1. #1
    CC International Master Jesper Norgaard's Avatar
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    Queen vs. Rook endgame

    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    I saw a video by IM (now GM) Jesse Kraai demonstrating two top-10 GMs mishandling KQ v KR, and allowing a draw IIRC. The main thing the stronger side missed was the win in this position (or symmetry-related variants):

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    This is actually a reply to the post #24 in the thread "Bishop and Knight checkmate" below:

    http://www.chesschat.org/showthread....l=1#post164401

    A reply 12 years after! I couldn't find a thread about the Q vs. R endgame, so I respond to this post from Capablanca-Fan, by adding a new "Queen vs. Rook endgame". I have made a document about this endgame, that should cover all the basics so you can learn all the techniques that will enable you to win with confidence. I am very interested in feedback if you think this is enough to make you win this endgame.

    The above position from Capablanca-Fan is mentioned several places in the document, I also believe it occurs quite frequently.

    This is the link to the PDF file about Q v R endgame
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1gZ2...k4yq6iWS4/view

    I am very interested in feedback to this PDF. If you have general questions about the QvR endgame, I can comment.
    Chess well played is imagination, calculation, observation, experience and memorization in order of importance.

  2. #2
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesper Norgaard View Post
    This is actually a reply to the post #24 in the thread "Bishop and Knight checkmate" below:

    http://www.chesschat.org/showthread....l=1#post164401

    A reply 12 years after! I couldn't find a thread about the Q vs. R endgame, so I respond to this post from Capablanca-Fan, by adding a new "Queen vs. Rook endgame". I have made a document about this endgame, that should cover all the basics so you can learn all the techniques that will enable you to win with confidence. I am very interested in feedback if you think this is enough to make you win this endgame.

    The above position from Capablanca-Fan is mentioned several places in the document, I also believe it occurs quite frequently.

    This is the link to the PDF file about Q v R endgame
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1gZ2...k4yq6iWS4/view

    I am very interested in feedback to this PDF. If you have general questions about the QvR endgame, I can comment.
    Thank you for putting that article together. It's interesting how this above position is more important than I thought. After reading this article, people should no longer drop draws from this theoretically winning position, as even leading grandmasters have, as you document. In quite a number of positions, not just this one, a well-chosen Q-retreat is the best move—easy for a computer, but counter-intuitive to humans.
    “The destructive capacity of the individual, however vicious, is small; of the state, however well-intentioned, almost limitless. Expand the state and that destructive capacity necessarily expands, too, pari passu.”—Paul Johnson, Modern Times, 1983.

  3. #3
    CC International Master Jesper Norgaard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    Thank you for putting that article together. It's interesting how this above position is more important than I thought. After reading this article, people should no longer drop draws from this theoretically winning position, as even leading grandmasters have, as you document. In quite a number of positions, not just this one, a well-chosen Q-retreat is the best move—easy for a computer, but counter-intuitive to humans.
    Thank you for the kind words. I also find this ending fascinating because it shows the fight between queen and rook, which intuitively should be easily winning, is in fact quite difficult. Often queen checks are useless compared to a queen dominating a diagonal towards the defending king. Counter-intiutively then in certain situations it is vital to make even 4-5 checks to get the queen exactly maneuvered in position to support the attacking king to advance with no rook checks. In the Philidor position the queen wins most expediently by obtaining a check from the opposite corner. In your example position, Qe4! simply avoids Rh7+ and this is enough to collapse the defence.
    Chess well played is imagination, calculation, observation, experience and memorization in order of importance.

  4. #4
    CC International Master Jesper Norgaard's Avatar
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    I have had a close encounter with this endgame twice in Standard games.

    The first was JN - GM Marcel Sisniega 1996. After a long and exciting game, I had reached a simple winning position, but unfortunately had very little time left, perhaps 40-50 seconds, in a sudden-death game.

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    The next was less obvious, but I had a hidden win that would lead to QvR. JN - Humberto Morales 1997.

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    Perhaps that is why I have studied Queen vs. Rook so diligently, I feel I deserve a come-back after those 2 games.
    Chess well played is imagination, calculation, observation, experience and memorization in order of importance.

  5. #5
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesper Norgaard View Post
    I have had a close encounter with this endgame twice in Standard games.

    The first was JN - GM Marcel Sisniega 1996. After a long and exciting game, I had reached a simple winning position, but unfortunately had very little time left, perhaps 40-50 seconds, in a sudden-death game.

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    Some suggestions above in notes to W66 and W68.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesper Norgaard View Post
    Perhaps that is why I have studied Queen vs. Rook so diligently, I feel I deserve a come-back after those 2 games.
    Yes, you and anyone else who studies your paper should be able to win this endgame.
    Last edited by Capablanca-Fan; 25-08-2019 at 07:14 AM.
    “The destructive capacity of the individual, however vicious, is small; of the state, however well-intentioned, almost limitless. Expand the state and that destructive capacity necessarily expands, too, pari passu.”—Paul Johnson, Modern Times, 1983.

  6. #6
    CC International Master Jesper Norgaard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    Some suggestions above in notes to W66 and W68.
    Yes obviously I produced some silly moves for Black, if replacing 65...Kg5 with Kf5 or Kh5 and 67...Kg3 with Kh3 I think the white moves given are sensible. I don't know why I would ever consider to move the black king to black squares given it makes it easier to produce forks.
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  7. #7
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Excellent stuff.

    I have had this endgame three times:

    * once in a casual game long ago vs a player of similar strength; couldn't win it in 50 moves.

    * starting from this position in a time scramble with no increment (I don't have the remaining moves.) Both players have seconds left. Black has just blundered with ...Kd6 not realising he was allowing me to promote with check. Almost any other move would be agreed drawn. As it turns out that would have been better for me.

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    In about ten moves - which is pretty miraculous given the start position - I managed to reach this position

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    ...but here flagged as my hand was in the air playing Qh8#, at a cost of $150.

    * a rapid where I converted in about 30 moves; don't think I have the moves.

  8. #8
    CC International Master Jesper Norgaard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham View Post

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    ...but here flagged as my hand was in the air playing Qh8#, at a cost of $150.
    Let me guess, your last move was 1.Qd4; and his last move 1...Kg8-f8?? allowing Qh8#. Turns out that the tablebase goes straight to a Diagonal Sausage Stick with 1...Rf8! 2.Qa7! (keeping the black king boxed in) Rf1! 3.Qa2! Rf7! 4.Qd5! Rg7 5.Kf6+ and we are reaching a Philidor position in the corner. It is surprising how many times this maneuver arises in perfect play, which I have named the Diagonal Sausage Stick. It is one of the revelations of this endgame, a valuable tool for pressing the defending king and the rook into the corner.

    A wise man said that you should never analyze Blitz games, and I sense that you were approaching a Blitz phase. RIP guillotine games - you will not be missed. The guillotine finish was also largely to blame for the ridiculous end to my game against GM Marcel Sisniega (RIP 2013).
    Chess well played is imagination, calculation, observation, experience and memorization in order of importance.

  9. #9
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesper Norgaard View Post
    Let me guess, your last move was 1.Qd4; and his last move 1...Kg8-f8?? allowing Qh8#.
    I can't remember; it was in 2005. It is possible his last move was ...Kg7-f8??

    A wise man said that you should never analyze Blitz games, and I sense that you were approaching a Blitz phase.
    Game was G90 flat with analog clocks; it was the last year without increments (2005). We were both less than a minute when he blundered by allowing me to promote with check, but his clock looked worse; I never expected my flag to fall first. Often the way.

  10. #10
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    I accidentally came across a game in a database in which GM Ian Rogers drew by the 50 move rule with a rook against a 2300 player's game.

    Mind you, I blundered with the queen by allowing perpetual check against Mark Chapman, in a weekender with a ten second increment.
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  11. #11
    CC International Master Jesper Norgaard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FM_Bill View Post
    I accidentally came across a game in a database in which GM Ian Rogers drew by the 50 move rule with a rook against a 2300 player's game.

    Mind you, I blundered with the queen by allowing perpetual check against Mark Chapman, in a weekender with a ten second increment.
    Blowing it with 10 seconds increment is certainly more excusable than with 30 seconds increment.

    A rather mind blowing game, against Afek 2389. He is a well-known study composer. Apparently Rogers (2569) allowed mate in 1 quite early in the endgame.

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    Could they have been very low on time? Even a Blitz game? It says Vlissingen Open 2005. There was a three-fold repetition of the same position but once with the other player on the move, so it didn't count. Probably Afek just gave up trying anymore since he was clueless in this endgame.
    Last edited by Jesper Norgaard; 27-09-2019 at 06:26 PM.
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  12. #12
    CC International Master Jesper Norgaard's Avatar
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    Let's see the repetitions, 2 with Black to move, and 1 with White to move

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    It couldn't have been a draw by 50-move rule since the last capture happened with 79...Kxc6, so a draw claim could not be made until Black's 129.th. move.

    So did Rogers actually make an erroneous claim for draw by repetition, which should have been rejected? And did the arbiter grant the draw? Or was it an agreed draw? My curiosity is bursting!

    Does anybody have contact with Rogers?
    Chess well played is imagination, calculation, observation, experience and memorization in order of importance.

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