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  1. #31
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Normally I ban discussion of chess on non-chess threads but this thread is exempt from that for all posters, provided that the discussion of chess is in general limited to transgender issues.

    Edit: this is not a licence for off-topic posts about general transgender-related anecdotes and I have deleted one such already.
    Last edited by Kevin Bonham; 11-08-2019 at 02:08 PM.
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  2. #32
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    “advantage to transwomen … is an intolerable unfairness”—JME paper

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    I agree that transgender athletes start with an edge. And males of similar ability do outperform females. But having being male doesn't guarantee that you will become the best female player.
    It certainly doesn't in chess, so I have no problem with born males winning female chess titles. But when it comes to physical sports that involve strength and speed, having had the testosterone-fueled muscle growth provides a lasting advantage, according to two bioethicists and one physiologist from Otago University:

    Taryn Knox, Lynley C Anderson, Alison Heather
    Transwomen in elite sport: scientific and ethical considerations
    J. Medical Ethics 45(6):395, 19 June 2019

    Abstract
    The inclusion of elite transwomen athletes in sport is controversial. The recent International Olympic Committee (IOC) (2015) guidelines allow transwomen to compete in the women’s division if (amongst other things) their testosterone is held below 10 nmol/L. This is significantly higher than that of cis-women. Science demonstrates that high testosterone and other male physiology provides a performance advantage in sport suggesting that transwomen retain some of that advantage. To determine whether the advantage is unfair necessitates an ethical analysis of the principles of inclusion and fairness. Particularly important is whether the advantage held by transwomen is a tolerable or intolerable unfairness. We conclude that the advantage to transwomen afforded by the IOC guidelines is an intolerable unfairness. This does not mean transwomen should be excluded from elite sport but that the existing male/female categories in sport should be abandoned in favour of a more nuanced approach satisfying both inclusion and fairness.

    They argued that the transwomen can retain their muscle mass through training and muscle memory, so that they “did not lose significant muscle mass (or power)”.

    I documented that transwomen have set a number of records, but I know of no transman who has done so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    Here is a list of famous transgender sportspeople - none of whom are particularly famous for their sporting achievements (Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner is a special case, and Caster Semenya may not even be transgender).
    Thanks for that list. It would seem that Erik Schinegger (formerly Erika Schinegger) had androgen insensitivity syndrome. Fallon Fox (formerly Burton Boyd) put a female fighter in hospital, who said that she had never faced such power before.
    Last edited by Capablanca-Fan; 16-08-2019 at 02:34 AM.
    “The history of the 20th century is full of examples of countries that set out to redistribute wealth and ended up redistributing poverty.”
    “There’s no point blaming the tragedies of socialism on the flaws or corruption of particular leaders. Any system which allows some people to exercise unbridled power over others is an open invitation to abuse, whether that system is called slavery or socialism or something else.”—Thomas Sowell

  3. #33
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by road runner View Post
    Why not just have an open comp and a womens' comp, as many sports already do, and have the womens' comp be for women from go to whoa?

    Sports already recognise the benefits of increased testosterone, cf. Chinese women swimmer drug cheats.
    That's a very sensible idea.
    “The history of the 20th century is full of examples of countries that set out to redistribute wealth and ended up redistributing poverty.”
    “There’s no point blaming the tragedies of socialism on the flaws or corruption of particular leaders. Any system which allows some people to exercise unbridled power over others is an open invitation to abuse, whether that system is called slavery or socialism or something else.”—Thomas Sowell

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    I



    Thanks for that list. It would seem that Erik Schinegger (formerly Erika Schinegger) had androgen insensitivity syndrome. Fallon Fox (formerly Burton Boyd) put a female fighter in hospital, who said that she had never faced such power before.
    I also wonder whether transgender transgender competitors themselves find it ethical to compete in sports such as restling, boxing etc...
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  5. #35
    CC Grandmaster antichrist's Avatar
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    I wonder if there is gender change for the purpose of entering female competition? The women should boycott such competitions.
    Zionism is racism as defined by the UN, Israel by every dirty means available steals land and water, kill Palestinian freedom fighters and civilians, and operates an apartheid system to drive more Palestinians off their land

  6. #36
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by antichrist View Post
    I wonder if there is gender change for the purpose of entering female competition?
    Why bother? Most female sports are not lucrative.
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  7. #37
    CC Grandmaster antichrist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham View Post
    Why bother? Most female sports are not lucrative.
    A world title or even national or state title in any gender would be very alluring for many second grade "sportsmen" whom are otherwise hopeless of course. Haven't you heard that saying "give them five bucks and a title and it goes to their head". If male rated 200 can demolish Serena my proposition is quite feasible
    Zionism is racism as defined by the UN, Israel by every dirty means available steals land and water, kill Palestinian freedom fighters and civilians, and operates an apartheid system to drive more Palestinians off their land

  8. #38
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Transgenderism in sports where physical strength is important is causing great harm

    Women’s Rugby Refs Are Quitting Because Transgender Athletes Are Breaking Players’ Bones
    By Peter Hasson | Pluralist | 29 Sep 2019

    Biological males who identify as transgender women are wreaking havoc in women’s rugby in Great Britain.

    Women’s rugby referees in England are quitting their jobs over the inclusion of the male athletes, according to a report in The Sunday Times this weekend.

    “Being forced to prioritize hurt feelings over broken bones exposes me to personal litigation from female players who have been damaged by players who are biologically male. This is driving female players and referees out of the game,” one referee told the British paper under the condition of anonymity.

    “If you even ask the question, you are told you are a bigot,” another referee told the Times, stating that they had witnessed five different women’s players with beards over the course of half a season.

    Former Olympic athlete Sharron Davies told the paper that allowing biologically male athletes who identify as transgender women to play on female rugby teams is non-sensical.

    “My daughter Grace was told at the age of 11 she could no longer play with the boys because it was no longer safe. How can they have that rule in place and … say it is perfectly OK for a transgender woman who is a biological man to play with the girls, but girls who are girls are not allowed to play with the boys because it is dangerous?” said Davies.
    “The history of the 20th century is full of examples of countries that set out to redistribute wealth and ended up redistributing poverty.”
    “There’s no point blaming the tragedies of socialism on the flaws or corruption of particular leaders. Any system which allows some people to exercise unbridled power over others is an open invitation to abuse, whether that system is called slavery or socialism or something else.”—Thomas Sowell

  9. #39
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    How do they know the players are transgender? Heavy steroid use can cause women to develop masculine characteristics. And many women are just naturally big and strong, of course, and no doubt exercise regularly to develop their natural abilities further.

  10. #40
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  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    End of women's sport? Women's cricket, rugby league, golf, tennis, etc, etc ... seem to be doing just fine.

  12. #42
    CC Grandmaster Desmond's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    End of women's sport? Women's cricket, rugby league, golf, tennis, etc, etc ... seem to be doing just fine.
    Best they've ever been some of them, Eg cricket, AFL etc.

    Of course those crying crocodile tears for the womens sports in this thread are also those most likely to criticise separate womens titles, prizes etc.
    So what's your excuse? To run like the devil's chasing you.

    See you in another life, brotha.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by road runner View Post
    Best they've ever been some of them, Eg cricket, AFL etc.

    Of course those crying crocodile tears for the womens sports in this thread are also those most likely to criticise separate womens titles, prizes etc.
    Why would i criticise women's titles? In fact was got to have Victorian women's chess championship ran for the first time after a while this year.
    Its just that the prizes and titles should go to women!
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  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    Why would i criticise women's titles? ...
    Because women's titles discriminate against men, and you claimed to be opposed to all forms of discrimination?

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    Because women's titles discriminate against men, and you claimed to be opposed to all forms of discrimination?
    Your interpretation of discrimination is rather ...''interesting''
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