View Poll Results: WHO WILL WIN? (THIS POLL ASKS WHO WILL WIN, NOT WHO DO YOU WANT TO WIN)

Voters
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  • Coalition by >30 seats

    0 0%
  • Coalition by 16-30 seats

    0 0%
  • Coalition by 15 or fewer seats

    4 33.33%
  • Hung parliament

    0 0%
  • Labor by 15 or fewer seats

    6 50.00%
  • Labor by 16-30 seats

    1 8.33%
  • Labor by >30 seats

    1 8.33%
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  1. #436
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    Strikes are only part of negotiations, of course - most negotiations don't involve strikes.

    Strike action is protected by the government in Australia, within limits. But even if it wasn't, workers would still protest in other ways, which would not allow the company to sack them.

    You may not be a member of the union, but I assume you're happy to accept the pay rises they negotiate
    1) this is why government should not protect strike action
    2) I am not happy/unhappy to accept any pay rises they negotiate. I am happy to negotiate for myself. Let me take care of myself When I put on the ''hat'' of the employer and get others to work with me on my projects, likewise - I never heard the word ''Union'', ''award rate'' etc. I obviously know what the relevant award rates are but I have no problem with people asking me for what they believe they are worth even if its significantly more.
    And additional note on strikes: this is one of the reasons I support professional migration/work visas. When there were public transport disruptions happening due to strikes - I was cherishing the thought of bringing Train drivers from Overseas (most Indian Train Drivers would dream to get additional training and work in Australia) who will work for less money but do far better job.

    Re difficulties for employers to kick out people that do not work well...this is part of the problem with workplaces that have unions. They are not able to kick someone out simply because he is not doing a good job...if doing a bad job is not a reason good enough to get rid of someone who is driving your company down, what can we do...
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  2. #437
    CC Grandmaster ER's Avatar
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    Michael, Trade Union Movement has a long and proud history in Australia since the 1820s
    All working class achievements in this country have been brought about through long and hard fought struggles.
    Of course there are cases of corruption, mismanagement and fraud in Trade Unions administration but that has been
    discovered and dealt with.
    That's a characteristic of many organizations including governments, big companies and police just to name three.
    There have also been cases of unions been manipulated by (mainly left wing) political parties, but that didnt last forever either.
    The right to strike is of paramount importance and is considered as sacred by conscientious workers.
    Workers who betray their striking mates and side with the bosses are liable to contempt and be condemned.
    Once someone does that they are branded as dirty scabs for life!
    They can get away with murder but not for having been a strike breaker.
    Workers have paid those struggles with blood!
    Organized workers' movement banning = slavery.
    I remember cases in my working life when you couldn't have started in a job
    unless you were a member of the union.
    Not so sure what happens nowadays, however, in the final stages of my working life
    some unions (incl. a public service one) had deteriorated to the weak as piss level!


    And the necessary / unavoidable statistical trends

    • The number of union members in Australia has declined from around 2.5 million in 1976 to 1.5 million in 2016. During the same period the union member share of all employees (or union density) has fallen from 51 per cent to 14 per cent.
    • Young workers are much less likely to be union members than older workers and casual and/or part-time employees are less likely to be union members than full-time workers and permanent employees.
    • Industry union density is strongest in Education and training and Public administration and safety.
    • The biggest increases in union membership over the last decade and a half were recorded by the Police Federation of Australia (PFA) (up 92 per cent)
    • Australian Nursing and Midwifery Federation (ANMF) (up 84 per cent), and Independent Education Union of Australia (IEUA) (up 35 per cent).


    Source of statistical data

    https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliam...nionMembership
    Last edited by ER; 22-05-2019 at 12:00 PM.
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  3. #438
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    2) I am not happy/unhappy to accept any pay rises they negotiate. I am happy to negotiate for myself. Let me take care of myself ...
    Do you accept the pay rises negotiated by the union?
    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    And additional note on strikes: this is one of the reasons I support professional migration/work visas. When there were public transport disruptions happening due to strikes - I was cherishing the thought of bringing Train drivers from Overseas (most Indian Train Drivers would dream to get additional training and work in Australia) who will work for less money but do far better job.
    Your post contains its own refutation: drivers from overseas would have to be trained (no pun intended) before they could be employed. The extra costs would be far more than the losses from a strike every few years.

  4. #439
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    For Trivia Night - When does an informal vote count? When it's a vote for Alfred Informal (HEMP party) in the Tasmanian Senate election.

  5. #440
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    Do you accept the pay rises negotiated by the union?
    Your post contains its own refutation: drivers from overseas would have to be trained (no pun intended) before they could be employed. The extra costs would be far more than the losses from a strike every few years.
    I think we can do cost and benefit analysis for the drivers .
    re my pay rises...they got nothing to do with the unions. What I pay to those working on my project also has nothing to do with the unions.
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  6. #441
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    re my pay rises...they got nothing to do with the unions. What I pay to those working on my project also has nothing to do with the unions.
    So you negotiate your own pay with the university - you implied that you didn't?

    Or are you paid under an award which has been negotiated by the relevant union with your employer (including any pay increases)? If you are, then you are benefitting from those negotiations.

  7. #442
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    Capitalism, not unions, is responsible for improvement in workers’ conditions

    People should be free to form and unions, and they should be free not to join them. But as has been pointed out here before, they are over-credited with the improvement of worker’ conditions.

    Sure, the Dickensian conditions of the 19th century sound bad, had nothing to do with “exploitation”, and everything to do with low productivity and lack of technology that now improve our lives. Back then, there was no electrical machinery, lighting or air conditioning; no modern plumbing or safety equipment; and no antibiotics to cure many diseases. Even the “wealthy” people in Western countries were worse off than most “poor” people today.

    Without advanced machinery, workers simply had to work long hours just to survive. Children were not forced to work by “greedy” employers, but by their own parents, so that the family as a whole earned enough to live.

    But after new equipment was developed, workers could then support their families with fewer hours of work. Then it was no longer necessary to send children out to work. Unions deserve no credit at all; if anything, they hindered the very same improvements that improved the lot of the workers, then jumped on the bandwagon of improving conditions to take credit. Economist George Reisman points out in his book Capitalism: A Treatise on Economics (Ottawa, Illinois: Jameson Books, 1998):

    “They have opposed the introduction of labor-saving machinery on the grounds that it causes unemployment. … The abolition of child labor was an accomplishment of capitalism and the rise in the productivity of labor it achieved. As in the case of maximum-hours laws, insofar as child-labor laws merely ratified the abolition of child labor already being achieved by the market, they were superfluous. Insofar as they went ahead of the market, and imposed reductions in child labor beyond what parents judged their families could afford, they were destructive. Along with depriving poor families of urgently needed income, they had the effect of forcing children to work at lower wages and in poorer conditions than they needed to.” (pp. 658–662)

    A good example of capitalism improving workers’ conditions comes from Henry Ford, who had no time for unions. In 1914, he offered assembly workers $5/day, which doesn't sound like much, but would be $128 in today's dollars, and was twice the normal wage. And this enabled cars to become affordable to most Americans instead of only to the very wealthy.

    Australian trade unions were also at the forefront of the ‘White Australia Policy’. In the USA, they frequently lobbied for minimum wage laws explicitly to price out the labour of African Americans.
    “If Algeria introduced a resolution declaring that the earth was flat and that Israel had flattened it, it would pass by a vote of 164 to 13 with 26 abstentions.” — Abba Eban on the UN general assembly

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  8. #443
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    Quote Originally Posted by ER View Post
    Michael, Trade Union Movement has a long and proud history in Australia since the 1820s
    All working class achievements in this country have been brought about through long and hard fought struggles.
    Of course there are cases of corruption, mismanagement and fraud in Trade Unions administration but that has been
    discovered and dealt with.
    That's a characteristic of many organizations including governments, big companies and police just to name three.
    There have also been cases of unions been manipulated by (mainly left wing) political parties, but that didnt last forever either.
    The right to strike is of paramount importance and is considered as sacred by conscientious workers.
    Workers who betray their striking mates and side with the bosses are liable to contempt and be condemned.
    Once someone does that they are branded as dirty scabs for life!
    They can get away with murder but not for having been a strike breaker.
    Workers have paid those struggles with blood!
    Organized workers' movement banning = slavery.
    I remember cases in my working life when you couldn't have started in a job
    unless you were a member of the union.
    Not so sure what happens nowadays, however, in the final stages of my working life
    some unions (incl. a public service one) had deteriorated to the weak as piss level!


    And the necessary / unavoidable statistical trends

    • The number of union members in Australia has declined from around 2.5 million in 1976 to 1.5 million in 2016. During the same period the union member share of all employees (or union density) has fallen from 51 per cent to 14 per cent.
    • Young workers are much less likely to be union members than older workers and casual and/or part-time employees are less likely to be union members than full-time workers and permanent employees.
    • Industry union density is strongest in Education and training and Public administration and safety.
    • The biggest increases in union membership over the last decade and a half were recorded by the Police Federation of Australia (PFA) (up 92 per cent)
    • Australian Nursing and Midwifery Federation (ANMF) (up 84 per cent), and Independent Education Union of Australia (IEUA) (up 35 per cent).


    Source of statistical data

    https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliam...nionMembership
    I am not sure about the role of unions in the history of the universe/Australia...but as of now...they are nothing but nuisance.
    Interested in Chess Lessons?
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  9. #444
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    So you negotiate your own pay with the university - you implied that you didn't?

    Or are you paid under an award which has been negotiated by the relevant union with your employer (including any pay increases)? If you are, then you are benefitting from those negotiations.
    With the University, with some universities I accept jobs that they offer, with some I do not, with some we negotiate number of hours, tasks included etc. If I am not happy with the pay offered - I simply walk away or remain in my job with the university but refuse contracts for particular tasks.

    If University offers me less money than I am willing to accept - I will not complain. I will simply reject the offer. I do not understand what that's got to do with unions.

    If people refuse to pay me well...its a good call for me to have a good long think about what I should do to increase my market value.
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  10. #445
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    American commentators understand why Labor lost: they alienated traditional voters

    Working-Class Voters Deliver a Win for Conservatives in Australia
    By THE EDITORS
    National Review, 19 May 2019

    How the Coalition won is not so unexpected. It won blue-collar workers, outer-city and suburban seats, and regional constituencies, especially in Queensland. Australia’s cultural equivalent to the U.S. South delivered only five of its 30 seats to the ALP despite the party’s high hopes of gains there. On the other hand, inner-city seats in Sydney, Melbourne, and other metropolitan areas, inhabited by well-paid professionals, continued to drift leftward, dividing their votes between Labor and the Greens. Again and again, however, that drift stopped short of toppling the seats held by Coalition cabinet ministers that Labor had targeted.

    But policies inspired by virtue-signaling produce economic victims in other social classes. That had an impact on two important groups of voters this time. First, Labor sought to raise revenue through policies, meant to curb global warming, that would raise the energy bills of hard-pressed blue-collar “battlers” and also shrink their job opportunities in the country’s important energy industries. That probably cost Labor its hoped-for gains in Queensland, where the Left has fought a long campaign to prevent the opening of a new coal mine. As former Liberal prime minister Tony Abbott observed: When climate change is solely a moral issue, Labor wins; when it’s an economic one too, the Coalition wins. The scales tip farther rightward when the voters are informed that Australia’s contribution to carbon emissions is nugatory and that the Greens don’t seem interested in asking China or India to cut their much greater carbon emissions. The Left in politics and the media advertised this as “the climate change election.” And they lost.

    Labor also promised to raise taxes — on everyone, of course, by imposing higher capital-gains and income taxes, but on older voters in particular by eliminating legitimate tax refunds for millions of self-funded retirees. The party should have noticed that the Baby Boomers have greatly expanded the ranks of retirees on fixed or modest incomes in the electorate. Morrison did notice and ran a quietly effective campaign on both issues, warning the voters that Labor would cost them a great deal more money without improving their lives measurably. It was a quietly successful campaign aimed at “quiet Australians” rather like himself rather than treating the voters as ciphers locked into identity groups on the Left’s model.

    Morrison has thus earned the right to shape a political strategy in his own image. Until now he has been hemmed in by Malcolm Turnbull to his left and by Tony Abbott to his right. Turnbull fell from power largely because his quixotic policy of driving conservatives out of the main conservative party was leaving the party becalmed. As law professor James Allan noted, most of Turnbull’s close allies then opted to leave politics, because they were convinced that Labor would easily defeat a post-Turnbull Liberal party. Their happy absence frees Morrison on the left — and in particular allows him to shape conservative policies on energy, taxation, immigration, and much else without having to appease the cultural gods of the media and the progressive middle class. He was given elbow room on the right because the entire Australian Left organized a massive campaign to oust Tony Abbott, an early patron of Morrison’s when he was prime minister, from an affluent middle-class constituency that had been moving leftward for some years. It succeeded and Abbott lost. But he will have gained admirers by the grace and generosity with which he accepted his inevitable fate. For the moment, he will not have direct access to government power.

    Two political leaders of recent years have been able to win election landslides by putting together new class coalitions and in particular by converting blue-collar workers to conservative causes. They are John Howard and Tony Abbott. Both exemplify “Loughnane’s Law” that the Coalition wins elections when its prime minister is the leader of both the Liberal party and the conservative movement. In deepening the argument for his own blend of conservatism and liberalism, Morrison could do a great deal worse than summoning them frequently for advice on how to make his victory this week a permanent one — even if he has to pay for costly calls to Abbott in the Australian embassy in Washington.
    Last edited by Capablanca-Fan; 23-05-2019 at 03:28 AM.
    “If Algeria introduced a resolution declaring that the earth was flat and that Israel had flattened it, it would pass by a vote of 164 to 13 with 26 abstentions.” — Abba Eban on the UN general assembly

    “You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious.” — Obi-Wan Kenobi on the UN kakistocracy

  11. #446
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    Americans learn from Australian election

    Australia’s Voters Reject Leftist Ideas
    A stunning conservative win has lessons for the U.S.
    By JOHN FUND
    National Review, 19 May 2019

    Hell hath no fury greater than left-wingers who lose an election in a surprise upset. Think Brexit in 2016. Think Trump’s victory the same year. Now add Australia.

    Conservative prime minister Scott Morrison shocked pollsters and pundits alike with his victory on Saturday, and the reaction has been brutal from supporters of the opposition Labor party. They can’t seem to decide whether Australia’s electorate is stupid, evil, or both.

    Zareh Ghazarian, a political-science lecturer at Monash University in Melbourne, was snobbishly restrained: “We have completely expected an opposite thing for two years,’ he told the Washington Post. “Voters rejected the big picture.”

    By that, he meant that voters have rejected a sweeping Labor-party platform that urged Australia to move in a dramatically leftward direction on everything from higher taxes on retirement income to greater benefits for indigenous people to an ambitious program to reduce carbon emissions by 45 percent from 2005 levels over the next decade. Labor was heavily promoting renewable energy and electric vehicles; many Australians called the plan Labor’s version of the Green New Deal in the U.S.

    The sweeping nature of these ideas gave Prime Minister Morrison the opening to paint his Labor challenger, former union head Bill Shorten, as a risky, job-killing opponent of traditional Australian values. Morrison “ran a targeted, presidential-style campaign with a tight message focusing on tax increases under Labor,” lamented Osmond Chiu, editor of the Australian left-wing magazine Challenge. “He often appeared as if he himself was not in government but rather the insurgent.”


    “Labor’s climate policy and the local desire to save jobs were critical to its crushing defeat in Queensland,” conservative political consultant David Goodridge told me. “The highest swings against Labor were in electorates bordering the Adani mine areas.” Prime Minister Morrison is no opponent of renewable energy, but he insists that fossil fuels not be demonized. He once scandalized the Left when he brought a lump of coal into Parliament and said that no one should be scared of a product that had built Australia’s prosperity.

    Matthew Lesh, the head of research at Britain’s Adam Smith Institute, says the Australian election result has broader lessons for American and British conservatives: “Create broad differentiation” from your opponents, he advised today in the Telegraph. “Be the party of lower taxes and aspiration — and never give up. Then an unexpected victory could be heading your way.”
    “If Algeria introduced a resolution declaring that the earth was flat and that Israel had flattened it, it would pass by a vote of 164 to 13 with 26 abstentions.” — Abba Eban on the UN general assembly

    “You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious.” — Obi-Wan Kenobi on the UN kakistocracy

  12. #447
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    Cory Bernardi, Australian Conservatives, ‘bittersweet’ thoughts on the election

    The Bruised And Battered Left Have Not Been Vanquished
    Cory Bernardi, 20 May 2019

    Some columns are much harder to write than others. This one is bittersweet.

    I am pleased that the Coalition was re-elected last Saturday but disappointed that the Australian Conservatives barely troubled the electoral scorers.


    Naturally, there are lots of different thoughts about the result but after some reflection, I have drawn a few conclusions.

    First and foremost is the campaign performance of Scott Morrison. He was simply phenomenal and his candour, humility and enthusiasm for our country were in stark contrast to his opponent (and his predecessor PM).

    I have no doubt he drew many disillusioned conservative voters back to the Liberal Party. As one Party member wrote to me today:

    “With Turnbull lurching to the left, we were a great alternative, but with Morrison, deeply socially conservative, and an evangelical Christian, it robbed us of our ability to differentiate.”

    That said, the election result was a win for common sense and decency. Australia emphatically rejected the class warfare and identity politics that Labor sought to make the battleground of this campaign. To their credit, the Libs mostly rejected that mantra and this provided a refreshing contrast to what has been in recent years.

    It can hardly be lost on anyone that when the Coalition presents a genuine alternative to the socialists they do better than when they simply mirror them. Tony Abbott won on that basis and now too, so has Scott Morrison.
    “If Algeria introduced a resolution declaring that the earth was flat and that Israel had flattened it, it would pass by a vote of 164 to 13 with 26 abstentions.” — Abba Eban on the UN general assembly

    “You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious.” — Obi-Wan Kenobi on the UN kakistocracy

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