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Thread: Abstudy

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    This is where the problem comes from: trying to re-address things that happened in the course of history through a current policy.
    You haven't demonstrated that Abstudy actually creates any problems. And redressing wrongs is a fundamental requirement of ethics.

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    Does it work?
    Obviously Abstudy does help Indigenous students with their studies, so it works.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    You haven't demonstrated that Abstudy actually creates any problems. And redressing wrongs is a fundamental requirement of ethics.

    Obviously Abstudy does help Indigenous students with their studies, so it works.
    When I came to Melbourne `991, there were already Indigenous study preferences. Almost 30 years later....the same problems are being discussed as back then. What is the point of spending extra money if they are still ''disadvantaged''? Does it take 200 years to make a difference?
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  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    When I came to Melbourne `991, there were already Indigenous study preferences. Almost 30 years later....the same problems are being discussed as back then. What is the point of spending extra money if they are still ''disadvantaged''? Does it take 200 years to make a difference?
    When [you] came to Melbourne `991, there [was already money being spent defending against Chinese aggression]. Almost 30 years later....the same problems are being discussed as back then. What is the point of spending extra money if they are still ['aggressive']? Does it take 200 years to make a difference?

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    When [you] came to Melbourne `991, there [was already money being spent defending against Chinese aggression]. Almost 30 years later....the same problems are being discussed as back then. What is the point of spending extra money if they are still ['aggressive']? Does it take 200 years to make a difference?
    Chinese society progressing in every possible way: education, opportunities, building wealth.
    Even Chess and other intellectual pursuits!

    Indigenous Society...same issues as before!
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  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    Chinese society progressing in every possible way: education, opportunities, building wealth. Even Chess and other intellectual pursuits!
    They aren't making any obvious progress towards democracy - which would also progress them away from their military aggression towards us and our allies. Which means we have to spend hundreds of billions of dollars defending ourselves against them. Compared to which, Abstudy spending is almost nothing.

    But my main point was to demonstrate that some problems (like Chinese aggression or Indigenous inequality) can take decades to solve.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    Indigenous Society...same issues as before!
    Indigenous enrolment in higher education has increased significantly over the last few decades, helped by Abstudy.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    Indigenous enrolment in higher education has increased significantly over the last few decades, helped by Abstudy.
    Please .
    Do not tell me how Indigenous students (some of them get through uni). Some study fair and square of course, pass all the subjects and earn their degrees the way other students do. Others...you do not want to know (even though you can guess) how they get through uni.

    btw, numbers of people going to uni have been increasing overall - not just Indigenous.
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  8. #68
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    Posts moved

    Further discussion of #63 has been moved to the China and totalitarianism thread as it is becoming completely off-topic.
    Last edited by Kevin Bonham; 14-03-2019 at 10:09 AM.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    Please . Do not tell me how Indigenous students (some of them get through uni). Some study fair and square of course, pass all the subjects and earn their degrees the way other students do. Others...you do not want to know (even though you can guess) how they get through uni.
    I've no idea what you're talking about, but it has no relevance to Abstudy.

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    btw, numbers of people going to uni have been increasing overall - not just Indigenous.
    The number of Indigenous students has increased much faster than the overall number of students.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    I've no idea what you're talking about, but it has no relevance to Abstudy.

    The number of Indigenous students has increased much faster than the overall number of students.
    Very relevant to AbStudy and Indigenous students at Universities .

    What would you say if you get to know that some Indigenous students are given additional ''marks'' for being Indigenous?
    Would you consider this an acceptable academic practice?
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  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    What would you say if you get to know that some Indigenous students are given additional ''marks'' for being Indigenous? Would you consider this an acceptable academic practice?
    I would say that you're wrong about this - unless you have supporting evidence.

    EDIT: If you're referring to bonus ATAR points to get into uni, that's completely different - they're not "marks" and there are a lot of different bonus point schemes (eg, regional students can also get a bonus).
    Last edited by Patrick Byrom; 15-03-2019 at 02:01 PM. Reason: Further details added to save time.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    I would say that you're wrong about this - unless you have supporting evidence.

    EDIT: If you're referring to bonus ATAR points to get into uni, that's completely different - they're not "marks" and there are a lot of different bonus point schemes (eg, regional students can also get a bonus).
    The question is ''what if'' - would you regard it as acceptable practice?
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  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    The question is ''what if'' - would you regard it as acceptable practice?
    Your original claim wasn't hypothetical:
    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    Some study fair and square of course, pass all the subjects and earn their degrees the way other students do. Others...you do not want to know (even though you can guess) how they get through uni.
    So what were you referring to - it can't be ATAR, as that is about uni entrance?

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    Your original claim wasn't hypothetical:

    So what were you referring to - it can't be ATAR, as that is about uni entrance?
    I am referring to Lecturers being pushed (lets just say hypothetically) to Pass Indigenous students....IF this happens...would you accept it as a valid/fair practice or if Indigenous students are pushed towards higher marks to highlight their achievements.

    I am NOT referring to ATAR.
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  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    I am referring to Lecturers being pushed (lets just say hypothetically) to Pass Indigenous students....IF this happens...would you accept it as a valid/fair practice or if Indigenous students are pushed towards higher marks to highlight their achievements. I am NOT referring to ATAR.
    Once again - your original claim wasn't hypothetical:
    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    Do not tell me how Indigenous students (some of them get through uni). Some study fair and square of course, pass all the subjects and earn their degrees the way other students do. Others...you do not want to know (even though you can guess) how they get through uni.
    If you are saying that this is actually happening, please provide evidence. Otherwise you should withdraw the claim.

    We do know that it is happening with foreign students:
    One instance you'll see tonight is the revelation from whistleblowers that some foreign students and other poor English speakers are graduating as nurses from Australian universities, dangerously under-qualified.
    But I've seen no evidence that it is happening with Indigenous students.

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