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  1. #16
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    Hopefully, the story is coming to an end:
    Kanan posted on Fb few min ago:
    Thank you everyone for the support. I really appreciate it a lot, and it is truly nice to see that clear logic and personality trust still hugely prevails in our society, despite all the attempts from others who dislike me or want to paint me in worst colors imaginable. I would like to inform everyone as well that Alex Wohl came up to me today after the game, and pretty much expressed his regrets that the situation turned out the way it did. He tried to explain his position from his point of view, and was majorly upset and shocked by the lack of interest expressed from the organizers and associated people, despite him informing them repeatedly and seeking for some actions to be taken. Given he is being honest and genuine about all of this, I can understand his frustration with nobody doing anything about it. He told me he held off a day from blogging about this but couldn’t take it any longer due to lack of action taken by the tournament officials. While it’s both true and not so much (action was being taken but yes it wasn’t the quickest it should have been), I told him that it was very premature for him to make it so public without any further clarifications on the matter, and that he should have been more patient and waited for it to be sorted officially, as he had already notified a FIDE member about it, and that person got the ball rolling. Either way, he conceded it was a premature act on his behalf, but also asked me to understand his position and feelings. I try to see the best in people and am just going to give him the benefit of doubt in his intents entailing no maliciousness. He wished me all the best and said that he hopes I don’t have any hard feelings against him as he has none against me. I asked him to make another post that would clarify the issue to the public, which he promised he will. SO, It’s all over and it was just a silly mistake on my behalf for which I apologize again and I got forfeited as I should have been! Thanks everyone again for your support, very pleased to have received this from you all!
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  2. #17
    CC FIDE Master Lekko's Avatar
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    From Kanan:

    Quote Originally Posted by "Kanan Izzat
    Thank you everyone for the support. I really appreciate it a lot, and it is truly nice to see that clear logic and personality trust still hugely prevails in our society, despite all the attempts from others who dislike me or want to paint me in worst colors imaginable. I would like to inform everyone as well that Alex Wohl came up to me today after the game, and pretty much expressed his regrets that the situation turned out the way it did. He tried to explain his position from his point of view, and was majorly upset and shocked by the lack of interest expressed from the organizers and associated people, despite him informing them repeatedly and seeking for some actions to be taken. Given he is being honest and genuine about all of this, I can understand his frustration with nobody doing anything about it. He told me he held off a day from blogging about this but couldn’t take it any longer due to lack of action taken by the tournament officials. While it’s both true and not so much (action was being taken but yes it wasn’t the quickest it should have been), I told him that it was very premature for him to make it so public without any further clarifications on the matter, and that he should have been more patient and waited for it to be sorted officially, as he had already notified a FIDE member about it, and that person got the ball rolling. Either way, he conceded it was a premature act on his behalf, but also asked me to understand his position and feelings. I try to see the best in people and am just going to give him the benefit of doubt in his intents entailing no maliciousness. He wished me all the best and said that he hopes I don’t have any hard feelings against him as he has none against me. I asked him to make another post that would clarify the issue to the public, which he promised he will. SO, It’s all over and it was just a silly mistake on my behalf for which I apologize again and I got forfeited as I should have been! Thanks everyone again for your support, very pleased to have received this from you all!
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  3. #18
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by road runner View Post
    Did Izzat's opponent get half a point or a full point with the forfeit?
    Note that it's a default not a forfeit (a default is a rated game, a forfeit isn't.) The site shows it as 1-0 so I assume it's the full point. (This is standard for mobile phone situations. Even if your opponent's phone rings and you have only a king remaining, you still win, because of the possibility that the phone was used for cheating earlier in the game.)

  4. #19
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    "I would like to inform everyone as well that Alex Wohl came up to me today after the game, and pretty much expressed his regrets that the situation turned out the way it did. He tried to explain his position from his point of view, and was majorly upset and shocked by the lack of interest expressed from the organizers and associated people, despite him informing them repeatedly and seeking for some actions to be taken."

    The painstaking way the two parties have articulated their concerns and have resolved them have been most impressive and have in my opinion increased their stature in the chess world.

    It must have been at great psychic cost to the accuser to have raised these issues (at the behest of fair play rather than from self aggrandisement), and utterly terrifying for a professional chess player to have to meet these accusations aired in a public forum (for reasons stated) and the innuendos read into them by those who crave instant titillation.

    What has become clear from the statements of IM Izzat above, and in the 2 blogs of IM Wohl on the 5th & 6th January, is that there is no suggestion of cheating, and that the integrity of both masters have emerged with their integrity intact.

    A truly sad happening which may have been avoided if the authorities had acted more swiftly, but an advice of perfection which will in truth rarely be met in the real world let alone in the traditionally friendly environment of New Zealand.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank View Post
    "I would like to inform everyone as well that Alex Wohl came up to me today after the game, and pretty much expressed his regrets that the situation turned out the way it did. He tried to explain his position from his point of view, and was majorly upset and shocked by the lack of interest expressed from the organizers and associated people, despite him informing them repeatedly and seeking for some actions to be taken."

    The painstaking way the two parties have articulated their concerns and have resolved them have been most impressive and have in my opinion increased their stature in the chess world.

    It must have been at great psychic cost to the accuser to have raised these issues (at the behest of fair play rather than from self aggrandisement), and utterly terrifying for a professional chess player to have to meet these accusations aired in a public forum (for reasons stated) and the innuendos read into them by those who crave instant titillation.

    What has become clear from the statements of IM Izzat above, and in the 2 blogs of IM Wohl on the 5th & 6th January, is that there is no suggestion of cheating, and that the integrity of both masters have emerged with their integrity intact.

    A truly sad happening which may have been avoided if the authorities had acted more swiftly, but an advice of perfection which will in truth rarely be met in the real world let alone in the traditionally friendly environment of New Zealand.
    This why it would be best resolved without the blog posts...
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  6. #21
    CC Grandmaster ER's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    This why it would be best resolved without the blog posts...
    LOL forum posts ok?

    Well, don't knock the blogs! Without Wohl's blog posting we 'd know nothing about the whole thing
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  7. #22
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    This why it would be best resolved without the blog posts...
    I think it was important that this matter was discussed publiclty as, unpleasant as it is for all concerned, there is a lot that can be learned from it. That doesn't mean I necessarily endorse every single choice of wording in Alex's original post, but this is an important incident that deserves to be discussed publicly so that people know what to do next time.

    Firstly as is very clear in the FIDE guidelines for computer-cheating incidents, an accusation that a player has a mobile phone on them is not, by itself, an accusation of computer-cheating or cheating of any other kind. So if the arbiter just has a player come up to them and say 'I saw player X outside using a mobile phone' then the arbiter can investigate that and default the player without having to fill out an Appendix A form. Of course the arbiter should also investigate what the player has been doing with the phone, which might then become a cheating investigation, but in a lot of cases won't.

    However if the player says 'player X is using a mobile phone and I am worried that he might be trying to use an engine' then that becomes more serious. The player must fill out the Appendix A form and a report will then go to FIDE and the Fair Play Commission (formerly Anti-Cheating). A situation where there is "a complaint about possible cheating" requires such treatment. Also when people are making accusations/insinuations about engine-cheating (especially publicly) they need to be very careful what they say because that in turn can result in complaints and penalties if the claims are unwarranted.

    For players - it looks like Kanan well and truly realises it but if a player finds themselves in possession of a mobile phone during the game then just turning it off and keeping it on their person is not good enough. Such a player is continuing to violate the Laws (having discovered they were doing so unintentionally) and it could be suspected that this is deliberate and their intention is not solely to avoid bad publicity but also to avoid being defaulted. Any deliberate breach of the Laws if proven is a serious matter, even when it isn't engine-cheating. An arbiter might impose a more severe penalty than just defaulting the game.

    This does raise the question of whether FIDE should require players who find themselves to be unintentionally in breach of the mobile phone rule to self-incriminate.
    Last edited by Kevin Bonham; 07-01-2019 at 11:07 AM.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham View Post
    I think it was important that this matter was discussed publiclty as, unpleasant as it is for all concerned, there is a lot that can be learned from it. That doesn't mean I necessarily endorse every single choice of wording in Alex's original post, but this is an important incident that deserves to be discussed publicly so that people know what to do next time.

    Firstly as is very clear in the FIDE guidelines for computer-cheating incidents, an accusation that a player has a mobile phone on them is not, by itself, an accusation of computer-cheating or cheating of any other kind. So if the arbiter just has a player come up to them and say 'I saw player X outside using a mobile phone' then the arbiter can investigate that and default the player without having to fill out an Appendix A form. Of course the arbiter should also investigate what the player has been doing with the phone, which might then become a cheating investigation, but in a lot of cases won't.

    However if the player says 'player X is using a mobile phone and I am worried that he might be trying to use an engine' then that becomes more serious. The player must fill out the Appendix A form and a report will then go to FIDE and the Fair Play Commission (formerly Anti-Cheating). A situation where there is "a complaint about possible cheating" requires such treatment. Also when people are making accusations/insinuations about engine-cheating (especially publicly) they need to be very careful what they say because that in turn can result in complaints and penalties if the claims are unwarranted.

    For players - it looks like Kanan well and truly realises it but if a player finds themselves in possession of a mobile phone during the game then just turning it off and keeping it on their person is not good enough. Such a player is continuing to violate the Laws (having discovered they were doing so unintentionally) and it could be suspected that this is deliberate and their intention is not solely to avoid bad publicity but also to avoid being defaulted. Any deliberate breach of the Laws if proven is a serious matter, even when it isn't engine-cheating. An arbiter might impose a more severe penalty than just defaulting the game.

    This does raise the question of whether FIDE should require players who find themselves to be unintentionally in breach of the mobile phone rule to self-incriminate.
    Kevin, I absolutely agree … I (as you know) very open when it comes to going public about things I am passionate about. Furthermore, I understand that some people believe Kanan was cheating. Would his phone been checked, and proof of cheating found - I would be the first person to agree that he is a cheat. But to accuse an individual implicitly of such a serious offense - even an outspoken person like me would feel that clear evidence is required. I would also include the evidence into the same message/blog post etc. along with the accusations.

    We had plenty of losses due to phone ringing etc before. I can recall it happening to Solo etc. It is always unfortunate. But on all other occasions - There were no reputational losses to the person losing a game.
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  9. #24
    CC FIDE Master Lekko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham View Post
    This does raise the question of whether FIDE should require players who find themselves to be unintentionally in breach of the mobile phone rule to self-incriminate.
    Just out of curiosity, what are we supposed to do in such a situation? Inform the arbiter? Give the phone to a friend that might be watching (and not playing)? If the player does inform the arbiter, is it at the arbiter's discretion if the game is defaulted or is there a law that says it will be or won't be defaulted? If the phone is given to a players friend, is he still continuing to violate the laws?
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  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lekko View Post
    Just out of curiosity, what are we supposed to do in such a situation? Inform the arbiter? Give the phone to a friend that might be watching (and not playing)? If the player does inform the arbiter, is it at the arbiter's discretion if the game is defaulted or is there a law that says it will be or won't be defaulted? If the phone is given to a players friend, is he still continuing to violate the laws?
    The relevant laws are:

    11.3
    During play the players are forbidden to use any notes, sources of information or advice, or analyse any game on another chessboard.
    During play, a player is forbidden to have a mobile phone and/or other electronic means of communication in the playing venue. If it is evident that a player brought such a device into the playing venue, he shall lose the game. The opponent shall win.
    The rules of a competition may specify a different, less severe, penalty.
    The arbiter may require the player to allow his clothes, bags or other items to be inspected, in private. The arbiter or a person authorised by the arbiter shall inspect the player and shall be of the same gender as the player. If a player refuses to cooperate with these obligations, the arbiter shall take measures in accordance with Article 12.9.

    A player has already violated this law just by having the mobile phone. Getting rid of it wouldn't help. And not telling the arbiter about it could be a more serious offence - if you're caught.

    It's not the arbiter's choice what happens, unless the rules of the competition have given him discretion.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lekko View Post
    Just out of curiosity, what are we supposed to do in such a situation? Inform the arbiter? Give the phone to a friend that might be watching (and not playing)?
    I think we all agree that it is a difficult situation for a player to find themselves in. Kevin posted that this kind of situation begs the question of whether players who find themselves to have unintentionally breached this law should be required to self-incriminate. My own view is that the laws should require them to do so. I view sport as an ideal world where the rules are absolute and not to be broken. As such, any known breach of a rule is worse than one that goes unrecognised, even if the breach was unintentional. In any event of known breach, there is the known potential for the offender to be caught and for the story to be published. This carries the risk of damage to the public image of chess, particularly if there is any suggestion of deliberate cheating. In this case it is clear (to me at least) that Kanan was not trying to cheat, but conspiracy theories always abound.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lekko View Post
    If the player does inform the arbiter, is it at the arbiter's discretion if the game is defaulted or is there a law that says it will be or won't be defaulted?
    The arbiter has no discretion in regard to breaches of 11.3.2.2. Even if it is specified in the tournament rules that there is a lesser penalty, that penalty must still be applied.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lekko View Post
    If the phone is given to a players friend, is he still continuing to violate the laws?
    The player is not continuing to violate the laws, but has already done so.
    Last edited by Andrew Hardegen; 07-01-2019 at 01:53 PM.
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  12. #27
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    A player has already violated this law just by having the mobile phone. Getting rid of it wouldn't help. And not telling the arbiter about it could be a more serious offence - if you're caught.

    It's not the arbiter's choice what happens, unless the rules of the competition have given him discretion.
    What I wonder about is a case where the player just gets rid of the phone as soon as they realise they have it (drops it in the bin or whatever), but is seen doing so. I'm not sure they've actually broken any more rules than the player who reports the issue to the arbiter as soon as they realise they have it. I don't think there's a rule against failing to tell the arbiter that you've broken the rules.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    It's not the arbiter's choice what happens, unless the rules of the competition have given him discretion.
    I don't think this is correct. The tournament rules can specify a less severe penalty, but the FIDE Laws do not give the arbiter any discretion. The arbiter has to apply the penalty.
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  14. #29
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Moderation notice - posts taken offline

    I have removed 10 posts because the line of argument in some of them was potentially defamatory, depending on facts that are unknown to me. Others were blameless and in some cases very well considered. I might put one or two of the posts back later, perhaps with some minor snipping.

    If someone wants to make claims that are even likely to be read (including between the lines) as allegations of actual engine-cheating then they need to support those claims with publicly available evidence in the same post. No little birdies, no offers to contact people offline, no cryptic crossword clues, just direct, clear and credible public evidence.

    If anyone wishes to discuss this matter please do so in the Help and Feedback section only and not in this thread.
    Last edited by Kevin Bonham; 07-01-2019 at 02:15 PM.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham View Post
    What I wonder about is a case where the player just gets rid of the phone as soon as they realise they have it (drops it in the bin or whatever), but is seen doing so. I'm not sure they've actually broken any more rules than the player who reports the issue to the arbiter as soon as they realise they have it. I don't think there's a rule against failing to tell the arbiter that you've broken the rules.
    Wouldn't that be covered by 11.1: "The players shall take no action that will bring the game of chess into disrepute."? Concealing an infraction of the laws would seem to be qualify.

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