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  1. #451
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    And yes, Majority of the HK still see themselves as part of China of course and are rather disturbed by the protesters.
    Is there any polling-based or other remotely reliable evidence of this?

    This poll series, which is the successor to a poll that has been accused of bias (what poll hasn't) but that was very accurate at the last election, suggests otherwise:

    https://www.pori.hk/pori_release20190813_eng

    (And before you object that polls were wrong in cases like Aus 2019, Brexit and Trump, they were only out by a few points nationwide in those cases, nothing like the effect sizes being reported here.)
    Last edited by Kevin Bonham; 15-08-2019 at 09:09 AM.

  2. #452
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham View Post
    Is there any polling-based or other remotely reliable evidence of this?

    This poll series, which is the successor to a poll that has been accused of bias (what poll hasn't) but that was very accurate at the last election, suggests otherwise:

    https://www.pori.hk/pori_release20190813_eng

    (And before you object that polls were wrong in cases like Aus 2019, Brexit and Trump, they were only out by a few points nationwide in those cases, nothing like the effect sizes being reported here.)
    I think it is important to draw the line between a specific issue (extradiction) and separation from China.
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  3. #453
    CC Grandmaster Ian Murray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    I think it is important to draw the line between a specific issue (extradiction) and separation from China.
    Separation is not and never has been an issue. Not gonna happen

  4. #454
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    I think it is important to draw the line between a specific issue (extradiction) and separation from China.
    Let's do that then. You say the majority are "rather disturbed by the protestors". You've cited no evidence for this. The poll link I gave found that 58% thought police had used too much force against the protestors, and that 71% thought the government was among the forces most to blame for the situation (71% included the government, 35% included the protestors, 25% included the police - multiple answers were allowed). If barely over a third think the protestors are among those most to blame (not even necessarily the most to blame), that's hardly consistent with the majority being "rather disturbed" by them.

  5. #455
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Murray View Post
    Separation is not and never has been an issue. Not gonna happen
    So the question is..are the demonstration anti-Chinese or anti specific law?
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  6. #456
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham View Post
    Let's do that then. You say the majority are "rather disturbed by the protestors". You've cited no evidence for this. The poll link I gave found that 58% thought police had used too much force against the protestors, and that 71% thought the government was among the forces most to blame for the situation (71% included the government, 35% included the protestors, 25% included the police - multiple answers were allowed). If barely over a third think the protestors are among those most to blame (not even necessarily the most to blame), that's hardly consistent with the majority being "rather disturbed" by them.
    It does not mean they support the protesters. It means they feel protests should have been handled lighter.
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  7. #457
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    It does not mean they support the protesters.
    Sure, but you said they were "rather disturbed by the protestors", which is a much stronger claim than that they may not support them. Just because one does not support a protest does not mean one finds it disturbing.

  8. #458
    CC Grandmaster Ian Murray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    So the question is..are the demonstration anti-Chinese or anti specific law?
    Both, but there is much more to it than such a simplistic choice.

    ...On Hong Kong's streets, protesters are demanding an independent investigation into police brutality; a permanent retraction of the extradition law to China which served as the impetus of the more than three months of protest so far; the resignation of Hong Kong's non-elected leader Carrie Lam; and universal suffrage to choose a new leader....
    https://www.weaa.org/post/hong-kong-...inous#stream/0

  9. #459
    CC Grandmaster Ian Murray's Avatar
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    Beijing is moving to stamp out the Hong Kong protests – but it may have already lost the city for good
    The Conversation
    15.8.19

    Since the start of mass demonstrations in Hong Kong in early June, there has been a significant escalation of Beijing’s rhetoric and tactics. Instead of addressing the root causes of the public anger, Beijing has demonised the protesters and threatened to suppress them with its military.

    Beijing’s shrill rhetoric, misinformation campaigns, and blatant threats have galvanised resistance in what has fast become a volatile situation. The crisis doesn’t appear to be dissipating. And things are going to come to a head very soon....

  10. #460
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Murray View Post
    Both, but there is much more to it than such a simplistic choice.

    ...On Hong Kong's streets, protesters are demanding an independent investigation into police brutality; a permanent retraction of the extradition law to China which served as the impetus of the more than three months of protest so far; the resignation of Hong Kong's non-elected leader Carrie Lam; and universal suffrage to choose a new leader....
    https://www.weaa.org/post/hong-kong-...inous#stream/0
    This is a different matter.
    Re Demanding resignation of C.Lam again - some are supporting her!
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  11. #461
    CC Grandmaster Ian Murray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    This is a different matter.
    Re Demanding resignation of C.Lam again - some are supporting her!
    Different from what? They are the demands of the protestors. Separation was never included - I don't know where you got that idea. So what else do you think the protests are trying to achieve?

  12. #462
    CC Grandmaster Ian Murray's Avatar
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    Last edited by Ian Murray; 17-08-2019 at 02:06 PM.

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