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  1. #1
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    China and totalitarianism

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    Still is...Lol. Just because a country has a political system different from ours - it does not mean it is failing - look at the amazing progress achieved!
    You have no problems with totalitarian dictatorship as a form of government? Even when they've caused the deaths of millions of their citizens?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    You have no problems with totalitarian dictatorship as a form of government? Even when they've caused the deaths of millions of their citizens?
    China is not a Totalitarian Dictatorship. Every political system has pros and cons. If you look at contemporary China, it is very far from being Totolitarian, having 1 or effectively 2 (e.g. USA) political parties makes no real difference. And as far as economic efficiency is concerned - just consider where China was in pre Deng's times (when the economic reforms started) and where it is now.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    China is not a Totalitarian Dictatorship. Every political system has pros and cons. If you look at contemporary China, it is very far from being Totolitarian, having 1 or effectively 2 (e.g. USA) political parties makes no real difference.
    Actually, the existence of political parties independent of the state is exactly what makes the US not a totalitarian state, as the Encyclopedia Britannica explains:
    Totalitarianism, form of government that theoretically permits no individual freedom and that seeks to subordinate all aspects of individual life to the authority of the state. Italian dictator Benito Mussolini coined the term totalitario in the early 1920s to characterize the new fascist state of Italy, which he further described as “all within the state, none outside the state, none against the state.” By the beginning of World War II, totalitarian had become synonymous with absolute and oppressive single-party government. Other modern examples of totalitarian states include the Soviet Union under Joseph Stalin, Nazi Germany under Adolf Hitler, the People’s Republic of China under Mao Zedong, and North Korea under the Kim dynasty.

    China is still totalitarian - it has a one party government, and no individual freedom. And, unfortunately, it's now a dictatorship:
    After casting his own ballot, a visibly relaxed Xi Jinping looked on as the annual meeting of China's rubber-stamp parliament voted to abolish a two-term limit on the presidency, effectively paving the way for the 64-year old leader to enjoy unchecked rule for life. The historic vote was a formality and its result unequivocal: 99.8 percent of the 3,000 delegates voted in favor of amending the constitution. Only two delegates voted against and three abstained.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    Actually, the existence of political parties independent of the state is exactly what makes the US not a totalitarian state, as the Encyclopedia Britannica explains:
    Totalitarianism, form of government that theoretically permits no individual freedom and that seeks to subordinate all aspects of individual life to the authority of the state. Italian dictator Benito Mussolini coined the term totalitario in the early 1920s to characterize the new fascist state of Italy, which he further described as “all within the state, none outside the state, none against the state.” By the beginning of World War II, totalitarian had become synonymous with absolute and oppressive single-party government. Other modern examples of totalitarian states include the Soviet Union under Joseph Stalin, Nazi Germany under Adolf Hitler, the People’s Republic of China under Mao Zedong, and North Korea under the Kim dynasty.

    China is still totalitarian - it has a one party government, and no individual freedom. And, unfortunately, it's now a dictatorship:
    After casting his own ballot, a visibly relaxed Xi Jinping looked on as the annual meeting of China's rubber-stamp parliament voted to abolish a two-term limit on the presidency, effectively paving the way for the 64-year old leader to enjoy unchecked rule for life. The historic vote was a formality and its result unequivocal: 99.8 percent of the 3,000 delegates voted in favor of amending the constitution. Only two delegates voted against and three abstained.
    Its funny how so many people around the world are concerned about dictatorship in China...while so many Chinese are not:

    The current Chinese leadership does enjoy popular support.

    http://www.bjreview.com/eye/txt/2008...ent_155556.htm

    I wrote an article about any nation's (China in this case) to make own choices without consulting others for Beijing Review over 10 years ago: http://www.bjreview.com/eye/txt/2008...ent_155556.htm

    Unfortunately ...it is still relevant!
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    Its funny how so many people around the world are concerned about dictatorship in China...while so many Chinese are not:
    The current Chinese leadership does enjoy popular support. http://www.bjreview.com/eye/txt/2008...ent_155556.htm

    I wrote an article about any nation's (China in this case) to make own choices without consulting others for Beijing Review over 10 years ago: http://www.bjreview.com/eye/txt/2008...ent_155556.htm Unfortunately ...it is still relevant!
    I'm sorry, but your article is just ridiculous:
    Traditionally (in ancient Greece where the term "democracy" is from), democracy was defined as government "for the people and by the people." Therefore, if we consider the concepts of "democracy" and "democratic society" from the authentic perspective-China appears to be no less democratic than the United States, Britain or France.
    In ancient Greece, every free adult male had a vote; in China, only the elite members of the Communist Party get to vote. China is not a democracy, unless you twist the meaning of the word "democracy" so that it becomes meaningless.

    And:
    For example, many of the newsmakers (such as SBS TV and Radio in Australia or BBC in Britain) are government-owned. Such dependence makes it impossible for journalists to avoid the obvious pressure to produce reports that are in line with the government viewpoint. Should the reports focus on Chinese achievements rather than shortcomings, they would be unlikely to be published by the press or shown on TV.
    You do realise that SBS and the BCC regularly criticise their own governments, which would be impossible according to your theory.

    I bet these people don't support the current Chinese leadership: "They are just two of over 100 Christians who have already been arrested in the weeks leading up to Christmas. They come on the heels of other high-profile arrests of lawyers and religious leaders, becoming a signature attribute of Chinese President Xi Jinping’s reign."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    I'm sorry, but your article is just ridiculous:
    Traditionally (in ancient Greece where the term "democracy" is from), democracy was defined as government "for the people and by the people." Therefore, if we consider the concepts of "democracy" and "democratic society" from the authentic perspective-China appears to be no less democratic than the United States, Britain or France.
    In ancient Greece, every free adult male had a vote; in China, only the elite members of the Communist Party get to vote. China is not a democracy, unless you twist the meaning of the word "democracy" so that it becomes meaningless.

    And:
    For example, many of the newsmakers (such as SBS TV and Radio in Australia or BBC in Britain) are government-owned. Such dependence makes it impossible for journalists to avoid the obvious pressure to produce reports that are in line with the government viewpoint. Should the reports focus on Chinese achievements rather than shortcomings, they would be unlikely to be published by the press or shown on TV.
    You do realise that SBS and the BCC regularly criticise their own governments, which would be impossible according to your theory.

    I bet these people don't support the current Chinese leadership: "They are just two of over 100 Christians who have already been arrested in the weeks leading up to Christmas. They come on the heels of other high-profile arrests of lawyers and religious leaders, becoming a signature attribute of Chinese President Xi Jinping’s reign."
    If you look more into the priorities of the Chinese people you realize that they focus on economic development rather than politics. More specifically, on creating a better lives for themselves and their families. Chat to Chinese nationals living in Australia (professional migrants, graduates, students) and see how many of them are actually passionate about the non economic policies?
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    If you look more into the priorities of the Chinese people you realize that they focus on economic development rather than politics. More specifically, on creating a better lives for themselves and their families. Chat to Chinese nationals living in Australia (professional migrants, graduates, students) and see how many of them are actually passionate about the non economic policies?
    You mean like Liu Xiaobo?
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    Beijing Is Silencing Chinese-Australians
    The New York Times, Feb 2018

    ... With so many Chinese-Australians left unheard, misunderstandings surrounding the Chinese-Australian community are rife. More than one million Australians claim Chinese ancestry, out of a total population of about 24 million.

    The Chinese Communist Party is actively fostering in the Chinese-Australian community what the Nobel Peace Prize laureate Liu Xiaobo, who died while in custody in China last year, called an “enemy mentality”: the idea that the liberal West is China’s enemy and that supporters of freedom are enemies, too. Those objecting to the Communist Party’s oppression, like pro-democracy activists, are widely referred to as “poison” or “hostile forces.”

    Fear is among Beijing’s most potent weapons in silencing Chinese-Australians. Like me, other Chinese-Australian critics of Beijing are targets of threats and intimidation. Last year, a Sydney-based university professor, Feng Chongyi, was detained in China for a week. The Chinese-Australian artist Guo Jian was briefly detained in 2014 after creating a diorama of Tiananmen Square to commemorate the 1989 massacre.

    China also monitors the social media accounts of dissidents in Australia, and many fear that their private messages and social networks might make them targets of the Chinese government. Badiucao, a Chinese-Australian cartoonist and street artist, has never revealed his face or real name out of fear. ...
    meep meep

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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    If you look more into the priorities of the Chinese people you realize that they focus on economic development rather than politics. More specifically, on creating a better lives for themselves and their families. Chat to Chinese nationals living in Australia (professional migrants, graduates, students) and see how many of them are actually passionate about the non economic policies?
    I'm a great admirer of China's economic growth, and follow Chinese news via the South China Morning Post's daily feed. However I have no delusions about who runs the country - the Party controls everything, including economic policies and implementation. You tal of Tony Zhao's village childhood - the village is controlled by the Party cadre.

    China is expanding its global propaganda program, with massive investments in fostering favourable coverage by foreign journalists and contributors (like yourself).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Murray View Post
    I'm a great admirer of China's economic growth, and follow Chinese news via the South China Morning Post's daily feed. However I have no delusions about who runs the country - the Party controls everything, including economic policies and implementation. You tal of Tony Zhao's village childhood - the village is controlled by the Party cadre.

    China is expanding its global propaganda program, with massive investments in fostering favourable coverage by foreign journalists and contributors (like yourself).
    That's a good approach - recognising both the good and the bad.

    But Michael isn't going to criticise China, since his business interests depend on him not doing so:
    My company (Baron Consulting) has been proactive in tapping into the Chinese market as well as in delivering a range of business services to the Chinese companies in Australia.
    Any public criticism by Michael of the Chinese government, and all those contracts will suddenly disappear!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    That's a good approach - recognising both the good and the bad.

    But Michael isn't going to criticise China, since his business interests depend on him not doing so:
    My company (Baron Consulting) has been proactive in tapping into the Chinese market as well as in delivering a range of business services to the Chinese companies in Australia.
    Any public criticism by Michael of the Chinese government, and all those contracts will suddenly disappear!
    I am very happy to consider both. In fact that article about Guanxi does mention that it is part of the society. However, I am trying to understand/explain it rather than simply criticise.

    I do not understand why being a non-Chinese citizen I have a right to comment on internal affairs of China. Re Chinese business laws, regulations etc related to international projects, I have been pointing out certain issues to my Chinese business partners/associates.

    i just find it amazing how many people are critical of the Chinese society without even making a slighted effort to understand how it operates and that many people think differently and have different priorities...and where they do prioritise - they are doing a great job!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Murray View Post
    I'm a great admirer of China's economic growth, and follow Chinese news via the South China Morning Post's daily feed. However I have no delusions about who runs the country - the Party controls everything, including economic policies and implementation. You tal of Tony Zhao's village childhood - the village is controlled by the Party cadre.

    China is expanding its global propaganda program, with massive investments in fostering favourable coverage by foreign journalists and contributors (like yourself).
    I feel honoured to be considered as a Chinese ''foreign agent'' - And looking forward to money (aka massive investments into me and my coverage) arriving...somehow so far, it is only the publishers of some articles (not all are even written for a fee) that are paying me. Also, funny how doing consulting/project work in collaboration with the Chinese Companies/Institutions can lead such suggestions .
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    I do not understand why being a non-Chinese citizen I have a right to comment on internal affairs of China.
    On the other hand:
    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    The problem with NK leadership - they do not care about own people so happy to see them die if required.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    I feel honoured to be considered as a Chinese ''foreign agent'' - And looking forward to money (aka massive investments into me and my coverage) arriving...somehow so far, it is only the publishers of some articles (not all are even written for a fee) that are paying me. Also, funny how doing consulting/project work in collaboration with the Chinese Companies/Institutions can lead such suggestions .
    Neither Ian nor myself suggested that you were a "Chinese foreign agent", which would be a fairly serious charge in Australia.

  15. #15
    CC Grandmaster Ian Murray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    But Michael isn't going to criticise China, since his business interests depend on him not doing so:
    My company (Baron Consulting) has been proactive in tapping into the Chinese market as well as in delivering a range of business services to the Chinese companies in Australia.
    Any public criticism by Michael of the Chinese government, and all those contracts will suddenly disappear!
    He goes way beyond being non-critical, penning puff pieces painting a false picture of the country (China a democracy??)

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