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  1. #16
    CC FIDE Master george's Avatar
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    Hello All,

    I offered no conditions to Aussie IM's because I was advised a long prize list would attract Aussie IM's.

    As far as respect goes I have nothing but the utmost respect for Aussie IM's .

    If the rumour mill got going in Spain and things drawn from private conversations I had with one IM well that is very sad indeed that that IM did not come to me and say early on look this isnt going to work I suggest this. Spitting the dummy is easy being proactive and making an early suggestion as to a better use of $5,000 (6-10 prize monies) would have been appreciated and acted upon.

    The only advice I got was make the prizelist long and the Aussie IM's will come!

    Monies offered by a previous organiser to all sorts of people COULD NOT be supported by the tournament and had to be modified. To support all the deals done by a previous organiser we would have needed an extra approximately $30 - $40 thousand dollars - under certain scenarios of making staying at Chalet compulsory and increasing entry fees by a large amount - none of which I was willing to commit to the original appearance monies could all have been paid but then how many other players would have come to play.

    Kindest Regards
    George Howard

  2. #17
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    George - "The only advice I got was make the prize list long and the Aussie IM's will come!"

    This is not the advice which I gave you in Adelaide in July - which was to have a prize list longer than the expected number of GMs, with a last (e.g. 10th) prize big enough to enable an IM to break even if they played well enough to finish in the prize list.
    However such an allocation of prize monies would have resulted in a reduction in the top prizes - first prize in particular - and George made the decision to retain the prize structure he presented to me in July rather than my alternative model.
    This is not to say that changes to the prize list would necessarily have attracted many more IMs, but it might have helped.
    In any case George may yet be proved right. Probably the media don't really care how many Australian IMs are playing but may be more impressed by a $4,500 first prize - the biggest at an Open for more than a decade - than, say, a $3,000 first prize.
    The problem is, as I stated in my earlier posts, that the IMs clearly gained the impression that the the organisers also didn't care how many Australian IMs played in the Open. There was no "rumour mill" at the Olympiad in Calvia -the IMs had already made their decision not to play in the Open in Mount Buller and were simply disappointed that they were valued so poorly.

    Ian

  3. #18
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    It is interesting to reflect on what will attract strong players to an event. I have been particularly taken by two recent posts

    Quote Originally Posted by DoroPhil

    2. Granted prizemoney is no longer a motivator at some point, but does this serve as a demotivator?

    Overall, I think it's Catch-22 in some way: strong players are more likely to enter if there are other strong players who already entered.
    This quote caught my eye because it seemed as though Dorophil was about to suggest the conclusion that strong players like a full tournament of competitive chess, and thus enter when the depth of competition is assured.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian_Rogers
    In any case George may yet be proved right. Probably the media don't really care how many Australian IMs are playing but may be more impressed by a $4,500 first prize - the biggest at an Open for more than a decade - than, say, a $3,000 first prize.

    Ian
    The quote from Ian takes quite a different tack; suggesting that players just below the top strata are attracted by prize-money or ‘conditions’.
    What really caught my eye is the suggestion that we get a media benefit from a high first prize. Is this really a consideration at Mt B. ? How does Mecure (our sponsor) achieve benefits from media exposure; I thought their KSF was room occupancy?


    starter

  4. #19
    Account Suspended jenni's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by starter
    What really caught my eye is the suggestion that we get a media benefit from a high first prize. Is this really a consideration at Mt B. ? How does Mecure (our sponsor) achieve benefits from media exposure; I thought their KSF was room occupancy?


    starter
    Well this is an interesting point. When the Mt Buller 2 proposal was debated by the ACF in July, Libby and I sat in as ACTJCL reps. There was a lot about general media coverage and big TV coverage etc and apparently this was important to the Mercure and they were going to organise it.

    Libby and I raised the fact that Juniors were not going to stay at the Mercure in big numbers (cost and kitchens). We were told that this was unimportant - the deal was not dependent on bed nights at the Mercure and in fact it was bed nights in general that was important, as one of the sponsors (presumably Grollo?) had interests in lots of other on mountain accommodation. The publicity was important, as it was felt that Mt Buller had been slow in positioning itself as a summer playground and had lost ground to other ski resorts.

    Somehow the publicity seems to have died and bed nights at the Mercure become all important. I have asked a couple of times why it has changed, but have not received an answer.....

  5. #20
    CC Grandmaster Spiny Norman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by starter
    What really caught my eye is the suggestion that we get a media benefit from a high first prize. Is this really a consideration at Mt B. ? How does Mecure (our sponsor) achieve benefits from media exposure; I thought their KSF was room occupancy?
    General comment here, not targeting any individual:

    When a discussion is had or a decision is made, is it written down? Notes from the meetings perchance? Like minutes from formal board meetings, if it ain't written down it never happened ... and when it is written down there can be accountability for future outcomes. I've gotten into the habit over the past couple of years of carrying a notebook and pen to every meeting. It helps protect everyones interests and it sure helps other people to be more precise in what they say if they can see someone writing things down as they speak.
    “As you perhaps know, I haven't always been a Christian. I didn't go to religion to make me happy. I always knew a bottle of port would do that. If you want a religion to make you feel really comfortable, I certainly don't recommend Christianity.” -- C.S.Lewis

  6. #21
    CC International Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenni
    Somehow the publicity seems to have died and bed nights at the Mercure become all important. I have asked a couple of times why it has changed, but have not received an answer.....
    I've been a little confused by that too. I can see that selling some rooms is useful in offsetting part of the costs of sponsorship but my understanding was that it was the image value of being associated with chess that was important.

    Advertising often features chess sets or chess themes, presumably on the basis that someone who plays chess is smart or cultured or whatever and their use of the product is a point in its favour. Thus being the hotel chain associated with chess, even if it costs to get that image, would be of value in the same way as being the airline associated with Australian cricket, the vitamin supplement used by St Kilda etc.

    That seems to be how sponsorship normally works - I can't really think of a sponsorship arrangement where the sponsor's aim/requirement is merely to sell its product to the players. For instance Fone Zone sponsors the Canberra Raiders because of the advertising value of seeing its name running round on the players' backs, not because the players buy their phones there.

    I think it's good that ACF is looking to make money for chess out of the image of chess, but if the "benefit" obtained from the sponsorship is the right to pay it back in consuming Grollo accommodation then maybe ACF is barking up the wrong tree. Sure the company benefits in being the chess hotel and getting its money back in room sales too, but what's in it for us? Would we better seeking a strategic alliance with, say, an airline or brewery?

  7. #22
    Account Suspended Libby's Avatar
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    My daughter's athletics club are sponsored by the local butcher and I don't see him keeping track of how many sausages club members buy there. I think he has made a commercial choice to sponsor an activity in his community, receive regular advertising in club literature and hope that will increase his business profile and might generate more customers along the line.

    I don't believe the minutes would fully record the discussions which took place at the meeting where Mt Buller were awarded the events. I can support Jenni's recollection of events (we huddled around the same cauldron - oops, phone ).

    I was particularly lobbying to remove the Schools event from the main bid. He-who-may-not-be-mentioned was also at the meeting and was able to say, based on the calculations done for his own Mt Buller bid, that the projected bed nights in the Mercure for the Schools event represented only 5% of the total beds across the 3 events. I argued therefore, it was unreasonable to tie the Schools event to the whole deal if it only represented such a small, direct return to the sponsor.

    In response, George told us the Schools event was critical to the deal for a variety of reasons - significantly because of media exposure with the Seven Sunrise program broadcasting live from the event. I did point out the Sunrise program is either Mon-Fri (the event being on the weekend) or Sunday morning and finished before our games started so live broadcasts were never possible. George countered that it would be footage from our event packaged within live telecasts from Mt Buller itself - the summer playground.

    I would be interested to know if there was any publicity surrounding the schools event in Mt Buller other than that organised at a state level by the schools & local associations. (ACT girls are getting a follow-up article in "Girl Power" early 2005. ) We were not made aware of any. The event all went well etc but I now wonder - again - why it was so critical to the overall Mt Buller package.

    So I think media exposure was a significant part of the deal at some point. And we were definitely told that beds at the Mercure were not the be-all-and-end-all of things as they have become.

  8. #23
    CC resident nutcase Trent Parker's Avatar
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    hmm this Mt buller proposal seems to have more holes than an Aero bar!

    I definitely hope it works out though
    GO THE DRAGONS!
    GO Western Sydney Wanderers!
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    God exists. Short and to the point.
    This is the reason I do not wade into religion threads.

  9. #24
    CC Grandmaster arosar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the chess nut
    hmm this Mt buller proposal seems to have more holes than an Aero bar!
    Well . . . hello! HELLOO!!

    Like, what have these trolls been saying? Look, it's a joke OK?

    AR

  10. #25
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    No mixed answers desired.

    Quote Originally Posted by arosar
    Well . . . hello! HELLOO!!

    Like, what have these trolls been saying? Look, it's a joke OK?

    AR
    It should not be too hard to get to the bottom of this issue.

    Ian indicated > George was perhaps focussing on a large first prize, to grab media interest
    jenni indicated > the issue had drifted from 'media attention' benefits to bed-occupancy objectives from the time of the initial approval to now
    Libby indicated that 'media attention' was subsetted to the Schools event in particular.


    This seems to dimension the issue.

    All we really need is one of the primary characters to give us the 'gen'.
    George? Kevin? Bill? An ACF member? GURU? (Well maybe not the GURU).

    Which was the payoff in Mecure eyes
    1 media attention
    1B media attention via the Schools comp.

    or

    2 Bed occupancy


    starter

  11. #26
    Account Suspended Libby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by starter
    It should not be too hard to get to the bottom of this issue.

    Ian indicated > George was perhaps focussing on a large first prize, to grab media interest
    jenni indicated > the issue had drifted from 'media attention' benefits to bed-occupancy objectives from the time of the initial approval to now
    Libby indicated that 'media attention' was subsetted to the Schools event in particular.


    This seems to dimension the issue.

    All we really need is one of the primary characters to give us the 'gen'.
    George? Kevin? Bill? An ACF member? GURU? (Well maybe not the GURU).

    Which was the payoff in Mecure eyes
    1 media attention
    1B media attention via the Schools comp.

    or

    2 Bed occupancy


    starter
    This is from the minutes posted previously by George on another thread. Like I said, the substance of the discussion etc is not recorded. Having raised the issue of beds at the Mercure in the (unrecorded) discussion and been told it was not critical - perhaps the "sniping" & "bellyaching" Jenni and I have done has some context since we have heard little about anything else than the beds at the Mercure since. Certainly we expected the Hotel would want people to stay there, we are not completely commercially naiive. But we were up front in saying we didn't think large numbers of juniors would stay there - and they haven't (and not because we have campaigned to put them elsewhere).

    GH presented the submission on the revised Mt Buller bid for the Australian Open,Junior and Schools events,referring to the attached documents presented to Council. GH stated that he would modify the composition of the Junior prizes,and specified that he was assured by the Mt Buller administration that they would deposit a $20,000 bond within 72 hours on a joint bank account as a token of their good faith with the ACF. In response to a query , GH also stated that whilst he would be happy to indemnify the ACF from any financial losses, he also thought that it was appropriate in that case that if there was a profit made , there should be a 50/50 split of any profits between the ACF and the organiser.

    DC presented the CV bid submission, and stated that the Juniors and Schools finals would be held in Box Hill,and that the Open would be held in the Glen Era Town Hall. DC referred to the attached documents,which contained details of the CV bid.

    LS presented the bid for the Australian Schools Finals on behalf of the A CTJCL,and referred to the attached documents that contained details of the ACTJCL bid. The ACTJCL bid would ensure that the School events would be held in December,separate from the Mt Buller Open and Junior Events.

    After the presentations there were numerous questions asked of GH,DC and LS by Council Members and Representatives from Associated Bodies.

    Motion:"that the ACF Mt Buller bid,with changes and assurances as given ,for the Australian Open,Australian Junior and the 2004 Australian School finals be accepted
    Moved:GH
    Seconded DM

    For - BG,NG,IM,TC,DM,DJ,KB
    Against - DC
    Abstain - GH,JH,GW
    Outcome - Motion carried 7-1

  12. #27
    CC FIDE Master
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    Conditions for Australia's Titled Players

    I think people forget at times the sacrifices that all titled players make to gain their titles. Australia has 2 GM's and 16 IM's, and so if an organiser does their job well, then there should be an opporunity to spoil our titled players.

    With Ian and Darryl both have accepted lower pay on many many occassions over the years to help out organisers, but you still have to be reasonable. I know one organiser who offered both Darryl and Ian $250.00 each to play in an Australian Championship. This is clearly unacceptable. (To be fair the organiser didn't realise what he was doing.)

    With the IM's it's a little harder. Most of IM's understand they can't make a living from the game, but they want to feel appricated. If you can offer an IM a billet and $500.00 you will often get 6 or IM's. Some IM's want more than this (and some believe they are worth more), but to be an Australian event with only one Australian IM, is a little disapointing.

    With cheer when the players at the Olympiad, we always need to cheer our strong players along. Who else is going to draw 2-2 against England for example.
    Lee Forace

    Forace´s Legacy - Swap off when you are down.

    It's better to set goals that one cannot acheive than to settle for mediocrity.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liberaci
    I think people forget at times the sacrifices that all titled players make to gain their titles. Australia has 2 GM's and 16 IM's, and so if an organiser does their job well, then there should be an opporunity to spoil our titled players.

    With Ian and Darryl both have accepted lower pay on many many occassions over the years to help out organisers, but you still have to be reasonable. I know one organiser who offered both Darryl and Ian $250.00 each to play in an Australian Championship. This is clearly unacceptable. (To be fair the organiser didn't realise what he was doing.)

    With the IM's it's a little harder. Most of IM's understand they can't make a living from the game, but they want to feel appricated. If you can offer an IM a billet and $500.00 you will often get 6 or IM's. Some IM's want more than this (and some believe they are worth more), but to be an Australian event with only one Australian IM, is a little disapointing.

    With cheer when the players at the Olympiad, we always need to cheer our strong players along. Who else is going to draw 2-2 against England for example.
    Thanks Lee,

    This post of yours is a really good post.
    I have learned much from a few posts on this BB that it is hard to learn elsewhere.
    The heuristic that you list ($500 + billet for an IM) is the first time I see this on 'paper', and it will help us with our tournament promotion and tourney design in 2005.

    What do you expect of the IM in return for the
    >$500
    >billet
    > prize-money opportunity
    ?

    regards
    starter

  14. #29
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    Value for Money

    'Starter' asked what does an event gain from having say 6 IM's at an event. The most important function they perform at an Open or a Champs is that they give untitled players (and FM's) the possibility of playing for an IM norm.
    One of the biggest problems with Ozzie chess is it is difficult though not impossible to gain IM norms in Australia. The Open/Champs is the only event on the calender where a player knows they have the chance to play for a norm.
    The other semi regular event is the Australian Masters in Melbourne which is held most years, other than this, IM events are rare.

    The other quality IM's possess is prestige and character. A lot of weaker club players (like myself) like the opporunity to play against IM's and GM's. (Though I haven't had the opporunity to play Ian or Darryl yet), and so adds to their event. I do know players who don't like this, but you can't please everyone.

    I hope that helps....
    Lee Forace

    Forace´s Legacy - Swap off when you are down.

    It's better to set goals that one cannot acheive than to settle for mediocrity.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liberaci
    'Starter' asked what does an event gain from having say 6 IM's at an event. The most important function they perform at an Open or a Champs is that they give untitled players (and FM's) the possibility of playing for an IM norm.
    One of the biggest problems with Ozzie chess is it is difficult though not impossible to gain IM norms in Australia. The Open/Champs is the only event on the calender where a player knows they have the chance to play for a norm.
    The other semi regular event is the Australian Masters in Melbourne which is held most years, other than this, IM events are rare.

    The other quality IM's possess is prestige and character. A lot of weaker club players (like myself) like the opporunity to play against IM's and GM's. (Though I haven't had the opporunity to play Ian or Darryl yet), and so adds to their event. I do know players who don't like this, but you can't please everyone.

    I hope that helps....
    Thanks Lee, I appreciate the attention to questions I raised.
    Actually, I had in mind just 1 or 2 IMs, not 6.
    And what I was musing on from my naive postion in this area is
    > do we expect the IM to stick around after his game and go through his win with the on-lookers?
    >> do we expect the IM to 'duchess' the sponsors?
    >>> do we expect the IM to do any ancillary junior coaching associated with the event.
    Besides just giving him $500 + billet + <opportunity at prize>, do we have any other overt or covert conditions expected?


    Our local (VIC) events don't seem to be 'into' this norms-business very much... so we can hardly class the IM' s attendance as a plus on this score.


    regards
    starter
    Last edited by ursogr8; 02-01-2005 at 07:35 PM.

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