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  1. #46
    Account Suspended jenni's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ggrayggray
    George and I have spoken and it looks like we will be offering a womens prize after all. How much it is is not certain, but there will most likely be a womens prize
    Shannon says

    "Excellent - it is not the amount of money but the principle. Those women who enter should not be disadvantaged, because the others are slack"

  2. #47
    Illuminati Bill Gletsos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenni
    I agree - having a title awarded to 3 competitiors is silly. However the real problem is that the wonderful male chess establishment does nothing to nurture female chess.
    Sometimes however Jenni the women dont actually do themselves any favours.

    I know Ralph and I think Charles Z and possibly Kerry earlier this year contacted a number of the more highly rated women players in NSW with the idea that the NSWCA would run the NSW Womens Championship if there was sufficient interest (minimum 6 entries). A number of the 2000+ women as well as some over 1900 said they would play if the event was reasonably short (6-7 rounds) but with a decent time limit.

    Ralph suggested we hold it alongside the NSW Open over the June long weekend as this would meet the above requirements but had the added benefit of not incurring a seperate Arbiters fee for the 3 days and no venue costs. Even so the NSWCA were prepared to run it at a loss (as a number of the expected women entrants were WIM's). Unfortunately only one of the women over 2000 decided to actually enter and at one stage there appeared to be little chance of there being 6 entries as a number of the remaining females (mostly juniors) wanted to play in the NSW Open proper. Charles Z managed to convince them (not sure how) to play in the Womens instead.

    It should be noted that previous NSW Womens Reps on Council (Carol Holmes and Georgina Tarrant) who were dedicated to the cause found it difficult to get the higher rated women to play in any NSW Womens Championship.

    Given the lack of support by the 2000+ women in NSW for the event it will not be held in 2005 nor in the forseeable future.

  3. #48
    Account Suspended jenni's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Gletsos
    Sometimes however Jenni the women dont actually do themselves any favours.

    I know Ralph and I think Charles Z and possibly Kerry earlier this year contacted a number of the more highly rated women players in NSW with the idea that the NSWCA would run the NSW Womens Championship if there was sufficient interest (minimum 6 entries). A number of the 2000+ women said they would play if the event was reasonably short (6-7 rounds) but with a decent time limit.

    Ralph suggested we hold it alongside the NSW Open over the June long weekend as this would meet the above requirements but had the added benefit of not incurring a seperate Arbiters fee for the 3 days and no venue costs. Even so the NSWCA were prepared to run it at a loss (as a number of the expected women entrants were WIM's). Unfortunately only one of the women over 2000 decided to actually enter and at one stage there appeared to be little chance of there being 6 entries as a number of the remaining females (mostly juniors) wanted to play in the NSW Open proper. Charles Z managed to convince them (not sure how) to play in the Womens instead.

    It should be noted that previous NSW Womens Reps on Council (Carol Holmes and Georgina Tarrant) who were dedicated to the cause found it difficult to get the higher rated women to play in any NSW Womens Championship.

    Given the lack of support by the 2000+ women in NSW for the event it will not be held in 2005 nor in the forseeable future.
    Well the ACT supported it - we supplied 25% . My girls were keen to play the Women's, but once they saw the pitiful numbers they preferred to play the Open. However (being community minded), they agreed to play the women's and support it. I think runing it along side the NSW Open was a mistake - the open is turning into a good tournament and the juniors want to play in it.

    I agree the women don't help, but I think the rot starts much earlier on. There are very few primary girls playing, which leads to a pitiful no of High school girls and almost no women (apart from imports).

    There were 38 girls playing in the Aus girls under 12 and under 18 in Sydney in 1996. Of these 38, Shannon is the only one still playing regularly. Natalie Maris is possibly a second one and Laura still plays sporadically. lets say 10% still involved.

    There were 128 playing in the open categories - of these about 17 play regularly or reasonably so. Around 15%.

    While a few more boys stay playing than girls it is also a huge dropout. Seems to me that the only way we are going to get women playing, is to have a huge increase in the number playing at the grass roots level.

    We have the same problem in the ACT - we have 300+ playing in the Girls Primary schools championships. Our % who go from there to junior weekend tournaments is small and the % who go to a junior club and are prepared to move to an adult club is even smaller. However we do get it happening, which is why we have a large % of the total no of girls playing in the Aus juniors.

    It has taken a number of years of very proactive programs and also creating female friendly adult clubs.

    I think if anyone is serious about wanting to create a better culture for women in chess in Australia this is where it has to be created. If you have a few more girls playing then it is more fun for the girls and more are likely to stay playing. Once you get bigger numbers in girls chess, hopefully more will play at the adult level.

    We need female development, not just bunging on Women's championships and complaining because they don't turn up. (Although I have to say that I think it is disappointing that they don't)

  4. #49
    Illuminati Bill Gletsos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenni
    Well the ACT supported it - we supplied 25% . My girls were keen to play the Women's, but once they saw the pitiful numbers they preferred to play the Open. However (being community minded), they agreed to play the women's and support it. I think runing it along side the NSW Open was a mistake - the open is turning into a good tournament and the juniors want to play in it.
    Clearly the strong women didnt want to play in either.

    Quote Originally Posted by jenni
    We need female development,
    Agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by jenni
    not just bunging on Women's championships and complaining because they don't turn up. (Although I have to say that I think it is disappointing that they don't)
    The point was we wanted the strong women to compete and there was consultation but we still get nowhere.

  5. #50
    Account Suspended jenni's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Gletsos
    The point was we wanted the strong women to compete and there was consultation but we still get nowhere.
    There are a lot of strong men who don't play either - just there are enough of them so that even if only 1/4 play, it is enough to seem that we have strong men playing regularly. We have so few strong women, that we probably do have the same % playing, but it is not enough to make an impact and certainly not enough to sustain women's championships. e.g Ingela played the ANU, Slavica played NSW Womens Championships, Sorokina played Ballarat.

    It is still a numbers game - make the base of the pyramid big enough, you get a decent number at the apex. It is the lack of proactive development to develop the base that is the problem.

    Incidentally it appears only the ACT is sending under 10 girls to play in Mt Buller - what does that say about the state of female chess nationwide?
    Last edited by jenni; 22-12-2004 at 07:45 PM.

  6. #51
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ggrayggray
    George and I have spoken and it looks like we will be offering a womens prize after all. How much it is is not certain, but there will most likely be a womens prize
    If so this is a good decision.

    You would have been in a stronger position to not retain such a prize had the entry booklet carried a rider "subject to sufficient entries" on that prize. You would still probably be within your rights to not award a prize but I think it would be an unpopular decision.

    Those who have at least made the effort to compete are not at fault and should be in the running for something.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenni
    I agree - having a title awarded to 3 competitiors is silly. However the real problem is that the wonderful male chess establishment does nothing to nurture female chess.
    I have a great degree of sympathy for the organisers of this years Australian Open, and I can certainly understand why they canned the prize money. Having said that I do think that those women who actually made the effort to enter have been disadvantaged by this decision.
    But if you are going to point the finger of blame at anyone, blaming the "wonderful male chess establishment" means you are not going to solve any of the problems of participation numbers in womens chess in this country. Try looking at a) the female players who didn't play and b) the organisation that purports to represent them, the AWCL.
    Starting with (A). We are not talking about beginners here. There are plenty of women who can play chess and have no difficulty competing on even terms with their male counterparts. Clearly at some stage in the past they made the effort to participate in other events, or how else would they be as strong as they are. And yet when the organisers make a real effort to reward them, they (as a collective group) cannot be bothered to give their support. Little wonder that the wisdom of treating female players as a seperate entity that needs to be over compensated for is under question.
    And (B). Female chess players have their own organisation, the AWCL. But what has it actually done for womens chess. Sure it sticks its oar in when the ACF tries to set minimum game requirements for Olympiad selections, and on occasion has organised seperate Australian Womens Championships, but overall its contribution to increasing participation rates amongst female players has been negligible (at least as far as I can see).
    So, if I was a female player and I wanted a decent national championship event, I wouldn't be moaning about the ACF, the Australian Open or even the "wonderful male chess establishment", I'd be getting myself onto the board of the AWCL and organising one myself.

  8. #53
    CC Grandmaster Garvinator's Avatar
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    Shaun,

    I agree with your post, but one correction, we are now going to offer a womens prize, but not sure how much it will be.

  9. #54
    Illuminati Bill Gletsos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenni
    There are a lot of strong men who don't play either - just there are enough of them so that even if only 1/4 play, it is enough to seem that we have strong men playing regularly. We have so few strong women, that we probably do have the same % playing, but it is not enough to make an impact and certainly not enough to sustain women's championships. e.g Ingela played the ANU, Slavica played NSW Womens Championships, Sorokina played Ballarat.
    I think you missed my point or perhaps I was unclear.
    Ralph and the others consulted with the strong women players and they said they would play.

    However when the event went ahead they failed to participate.

  10. #55
    CC Grandmaster Denis_Jessop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shaun
    So, if I was a female player and I wanted a decent national championship event, I wouldn't be moaning about the ACF, the Australian Open or even the "wonderful male chess establishment", I'd be getting myself onto the board of the AWCL and organising one myself.

    I'm sure that the ACF would be happy if the AWCL volunteered to run the Australian Women's Championship. But it would seem logical to have it at the same time as the Australian Championships so I'm not sure that this is the answer. Moreover, are there any grounds for expecting that an AWCL event would attract any more players, especially the top-ranked ones than are attracted at present? Their past efforts and their acquiescence to the present arrangement suggest otherwise.

    The problem seems to be, as Jenni says, the more basic one that there is such a small player base to start with. After all, there are also many top men not playing in this year's Open, and that is the case every time, but you can still get a respectable entry because there is such a greater player base to support it.

    This is not a problem that will be solved (assuming we maintain the present format) in 2 years' time or even in 4 years' time. It will take a concentrated long-term effort to build up a large enough player base to support a respectable event. Here the big question is who is able to make that effort. Grass-roots player development is generally the province of the States rather than the ACF due both to constitutional and practical geographical considerations. If there is to be a nation-wide effort this is where an active AWCL could have a major role. But it will need to be a more effective organisation than it is now and this is where Shaun's exhortation comes into play.

    The problem can also be attacked as part of the general one of player retention that urgently needs to be addressed irrespective of gender.

    Denis Jessop

  11. #56
    CC International Master Cat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Denis_Jessop
    I'm sure that the ACF would be happy if the AWCL volunteered to run the Australian Women's Championship. But it would seem logical to have it at the same time as the Australian Championships so I'm not sure that this is the answer. Moreover, are there any grounds for expecting that an AWCL event would attract any more players, especially the top-ranked ones than are attracted at present? Their past efforts and their acquiescence to the present arrangement suggest otherwise.

    The problem seems to be, as Jenni says, the more basic one that there is such a small player base to start with. After all, there are also many top men not playing in this year's Open, and that is the case every time, but you can still get a respectable entry because there is such a greater player base to support it.

    This is not a problem that will be solved (assuming we maintain the present format) in 2 years' time or even in 4 years' time. It will take a concentrated long-term effort to build up a large enough player base to support a respectable event. Here the big question is who is able to make that effort. Grass-roots player development is generally the province of the States rather than the ACF due both to constitutional and practical geographical considerations. If there is to be a nation-wide effort this is where an active AWCL could have a major role. But it will need to be a more effective organisation than it is now and this is where Shaun's exhortation comes into play.

    The problem can also be attacked as part of the general one of player retention that urgently needs to be addressed irrespective of gender.

    Denis Jessop
    Bold and imaginative words, Dennis, good luck!
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  12. #57
    CC FIDE Master george's Avatar
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    Hi All,

    The top female if she has not won a greater or equal prize will win $500 which equates to first prize in one of the three rating sections.

    There are insufficient women from at least three states to award the Women's Championship (see ACF by-laws).

    The Entry deadline for the Lidums is midnight tonight on-line and the Post Box tomorrow morning.

    So if active female chessplayers can rouse up some more female players for the Lidums Open I will be only too overjoyed to reinstate the Australian Champion Women's Prize.
    I would have thought the Women's Chess League may have done something to encourage females to play , perhaps they did I dont know but the $1,000 original prize for Australian Women's Champion was coming from the Tourney and not Evelyn as I understand has been the case in the past for a part or all of the Women's Prize.

    Regards to ALL
    George Howard

  13. #58
    Account Suspended jenni's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Gletsos
    I think you missed my point or perhaps I was unclear.
    Ralph and the others consulted with the strong women players and they said they would play.

    However when the event went ahead they failed to participate.
    Yes I am aware of that and it sucks. My girls went to NSW to play based on the fact that they were told that there would be all these strong women to play against.

    So I am not supporting their actions.


    However I think we shouldn't be worrying about what a group of women did or didn't do, but looking at the real problem which is that not enough development work is currently being done to create a big base of girls playing chess.

    Maybe if we create a large no of women playing in the future, we won't have a group of spoilt prima donnas (see I can alienate all the men and the women in a single thread ).

    If they really had to compete in order to get selection for overseas, they would have to play more.

  14. #59
    Illuminati Bill Gletsos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenni
    Yes I am aware of that and it sucks. My girls went to NSW to play based on the fact that they were told that there would be all these strong women to play against.

    So I am not supporting their actions.
    I really was just explaining why in the forseeable future there there is currently no plans for the holding of a NSW Womens Championship.

    Quote Originally Posted by starter
    However I think we shouldn't be worrying about what a group of women did or didn't do, but looking at the real problem which is that not enough development work is currently being done to create a big base of girls playing chess.

    Maybe if we create a large no of women playing in the future, we won't have a group of spoilt prima donnas (see I can alienate all the men and the women in a single thread ).
    You are nothing if not talented.

    Quote Originally Posted by jenni
    If they really had to compete in order to get selection for overseas, they would have to play more.
    True.

  15. #60
    Account Suspended jenni's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shaun
    So, if I was a female player and I wanted a decent national championship event, I wouldn't be moaning about the ACF, the Australian Open or even the "wonderful male chess establishment", I'd be getting myself onto the board of the AWCL and organising one myself.
    I think maybe the AWCL was a power in the past, but it doesn't seem to do much these days?

    I suspect Evelyn was very much a driving force behind this, but her health has not been good for the last couple of years and I think the organisation is fading.

    In the years that I have been involved the AWCL did a great job with the DD, but it doesn't seem to have too much of a profile besides that.

    I think we don't need anymore fragmentation of the chess scene. I am not sure that women working on their own in some little isolated pool is really what we want.

    As most people know I have always promoted girls only things as a way of nurturing and encouraging girls to become involved in chess and enjoying it. However I have also always believed passionately that it is only a stepping stone to full participation in the open competitions.

    So I believe that it should be the role of the ACF and state organisations to promote all development, including girls development. I really can't see how the AWCL would have much of a role in this.

    I am not really attacking the male organisers in Australia - just a bit cranky perhaps that the solution to a small womens's comp seemed to be to abandon women's chess, rather than do something about it (some of my best friends are male )

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