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  1. #31
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian_Rogers View Post
    Your Englishing is not very good either
    Perhaps you need to work on your Googling. "Strawmanning" is a common and useful online expression for a depressingly common practice.

    Perhaps it's time to get back to the issues I have repeatedly raised and you have ignored in your last two posts.
    Had I not made those posts that probably would have been the end of the discussion.

    Concerning the 2020 Australian Junior the ACF Newsletter in July reported that CAQ had exercised its option for that event. A persistent and extremely tedious problem is that critics of the ACF complain about not knowing information about ACF affairs, then when we publish it in the obvious place it turns out that they haven't read it.

  2. #32
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Post deleted

    I have deleted a post talking about representation in a junior event in Mongolia because it was completely off topic.

    Feel free to start a new thread on that subject - a bit tired of moving stuff about for people who have been here long enough to know that blatant off topic posting derails discussions and wastes the time of site staff.

    If anyone wishes to discuss this action they may do so in the Help and Feedback section only.

  3. #33
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Afitz View Post
    The schedule is still there I believe, though where to find it is another matter.
    Yes I wanted to upload a new schedule to the ACF website but have had issues finding a copy I can upload in standalone format. I might be able to get that done soon.

    The old one is here: https://web.archive.org/web/20160318...May%202006.pdf

    It just scrolls on from there following the previous pattern. The Aus Open and Champs are still available for state associations to claim options on if they want to, and States that have options are regularly asked if they intend to exercise them.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham View Post
    Perhaps you need to work on your Googling. "Strawmanning" is a common and useful online expression for a depressingly common practice.



    Had I not made those posts that probably would have been the end of the discussion.

    Concerning the 2020 Australian Junior the ACF Newsletter in July reported that CAQ had exercised its option for that event. A persistent and extremely tedious problem is that critics of the ACF complain about not knowing information about ACF affairs, then when we publish it in the obvious place it turns out that they haven't read it.
    I'm afraid the abomination strawmanning may be common and useful in your circles but it is not in any reputable English dictionary. Of course I don't speak dialects such as Gangsta or Internet Slang, as you obviously do.

    You are no doubt very pleased with yourself to say that without your personal attacks the discussion would have ended. It would not have ended had you bothered to address the issues such as the reasons behind the ACF's failure to create a climate where bidders for events such as the Australian Open and Australian Championships (as well as the national junior events) will emerge.

    To address your condescending final point, please show where on the internet (apart from via Chess Chat with its link) one could find the information that the Australian Junior 2020 has been given to Queensland. Unfortunately the ACF has not bothered to update their newsletters on their site beyond April. So the ACF could solve this apparently tedious problem for you by getting their act together.

  5. #35
    CC Grandmaster Garvinator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwoodley View Post
    So the Australian Juniors is no longer being rotated? QLD last hosted the Australian Juniors in 2017. I was under the impression that it was the ACT's turn since it last hosted the event in 2015.
    Regarding hosting rights and whose turn it is? I am no longer familiar with the formal schedule, but what I can add is:

    2006: Qld exercised their first hosting rights and held the Australian Juniors in Brisbane
    2013: Qld exercised their first hosting rights and held the Australian Juniors on the Gold Coast
    2020: Qld are once again exercising their first hosting rights as advertised.

    As for 2017, it seems that another State or Territory did not exercise their first offer option and so Qld decided to host the Australian Juniors after it was opened to all tenders.

    So the question that is best asked, is why did the 2017 State not exercise their first offer option, rather than criticise Qld for stepping up and hosting the event again?

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    Winning an argument/suggesting to ACF what could be done better is usually mission impossible. The final argument of ACF is always going to be ''we are volunteers - why do not you volunteer'' I have seen the very same argument brought forward when pointing out what I believe are ''productive things to do'' to state associations/certain chess clubs. This is why I think that the core problem is lack of professional approach. In Victoria alone, there are (at least!) 4 professional chess coaching organisations that are managing delivery of chess training in schools - all appear to be profitable (I obviously have not gone though their books ) and are employing a number of chess coaches. Therefore, chess can indeed be a business/run as a business.

    I am aware that the fault lies with us as well as with ACF/State Associations...not all of us want to become chess organisers/run chess-related businesses. However, the response of ''why don't you do something yourself'' - is always a perfect response. There are many people in the chess-playing community with many ideas that are based not only on their experiences within the chess world - but also on other activities (e.g. managing companies). However, lets just say, the ideas/suggestions of changes to the business processes are not always wanted
    Running a chess business is not the same as running a chess organisation. Most chess businesses I'm aware of are privately-owned, and mainly exist to make a profit for their owners. Chess organisations have to satisfy the needs of their 'voters', and are not generally run just to make a profit.

    One of the problems that chess organisers face is people who make suggestions about what they think can be done better, but don't seem to realise that, no matter how good their suggestions might be, they often requires a lot of extra work, which someone has to do.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    Running a chess business is not the same as running a chess organisation. Most chess businesses I'm aware of are privately-owned, and mainly exist to make a profit for their owners. Chess organisations have to satisfy the needs of their 'voters', and are not generally run just to make a profit.

    One of the problems that chess organisers face is people who make suggestions about what they think can be done better, but don't seem to realise that, no matter how good their suggestions might be, they often requires a lot of extra work, which someone has to do.
    Indeed. I agree with both of your points. So...this is why we have the problem in the first place . People who are ''not professional'' find it difficult/unable (for whatever the reasons are) to do a professional job.
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  8. #38
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian_Rogers View Post
    I'm afraid the abomination strawmanning may be common and useful in your circles but it is not in any reputable English dictionary.
    Give it time. Anyway, I thought you wanted to focus on the issues, but it seems you are more interested in attempting to grammar-flame. Which, I should mention, is fairly widely frowned-upon.

    You are no doubt very pleased with yourself to say that without your personal attacks [..]
    Now this is even more ridiculous from someone supposedly promoting a focus on the issues. #22 was not a personal attack - it simply pointed out that a post making criticisms of the ACF was based on a misinterpretation. You didn't contest the charge but instead made a personal attack on me, and as I have pointed out it was a misleading one at that. Now I am supposed to have started the personal attacks here? If I may introduce you to another of the humble internetisms that causes you to tremble with fear for the static future of the hodgepodge that is the English language, whatever!

    To address your condescending final point, please show where on the internet (apart from via Chess Chat with its link) one could find the information that the Australian Junior 2020 has been given to Queensland. Unfortunately the ACF has not bothered to update their newsletters on their site beyond April. So the ACF could solve this apparently tedious problem for you by getting their act together.
    Why should this information concerning something so far in advance have to be "on the internet"? People should subscribe to the Newsletter and skim it for anything relevant to them when they get it. That way they will get the information on a regular basis, whereas if they rely on checking the website to follow it they are much less likely to do so, even if the Newsletters on the website are always up to date.

    Despite an almost total lack of web skills, I've put a large amount of work into improving the archiving of recent Newsletters on the website, but it's an archive, not a substitute. From time to time it will get out of date for a range of reasons including sometimes that I simply forget to update it and no-one reminds me. In the case of the last few months, my ability to upload them has been affected by a technical issue I haven't solved yet.

  9. #39
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garvinator View Post
    So the question that is best asked, is why did the 2017 State not exercise their first offer option, rather than criticise Qld for stepping up and hosting the event again?
    The general rule is that States usually don't exercise their option, either because they're not in a position to run the event at all, or because they're unable to commit to doing so that far in advance.

  10. #40
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    Hmmm. So, Kevin, 'Actually in this case there's a self-inflicted problem with reading things into my post that I didn't put there.' is not a personal attack (as well as being false)? OK, I guess personal attacks can only be started by people other than you.

    You did, however, put your finger on another major problem with the ACF when you wrote 'People should subscribe to the Newsletter and skim it for anything relevant to them when they get it. That way they will get the information on a regular basis, whereas if they rely on checking the website to follow it they are much less likely to do so, even if the Newsletters on the website are always up to date.'

    The first port of call for, say, a parent recently arrived in Australia or a potential sponsor or a journalist, who wants information about a national (or relevant international) event is the ACF web site. They will go to the ACF site, find little or nothing which seems relevant - and you may lose a possible star junior, a potential Olympiad sponsor or extensive media coverage. None of them know they should be subscribing to a newsletter if they want basic information.

    Having a web site with at least news, a basic calendar and other relevant information should have been a priority more than a decade ago. By now we have come to expect a web site symptomatic of an ACF that doesn't really care: with a 2104 GP calendar and a self-confessed person with a lack of web skills updating the newsletters as far as April. (And I appreciate the fine work you do liaising with FIDE - the web site should obviously not be your responsibility.)

    It is great that the rating lists are updated promptly on the site but that doesn't help people just looking for useful information. Much of what is in the newsletter should be easily accessible on the web site (and not requiring a search through various newsletters to find out needed information).

    In fact Frank Low is doing such a phenomenal job as newsletter editor that it would take a website expert who knew chess (e.g. Moulthun Ly amongst many) perhaps a couple of hours to transfer much of that information to the web site, more time if you wanted the site updated as well. With the ACF having about $100,000 in the bank, why not hire someone? The ACF would probably get the money back in extra rating fees within a year and would then have a web site with news, announcements, a calendar, media information and lots more.

  11. #41
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian_Rogers View Post
    Hmmm. So, Kevin, 'Actually in this case there's a self-inflicted problem with reading things into my post that I didn't put there.' is not a personal attack (as well as being false)?
    It's not false, and it was no more a personal attack than if I played a bad chess move and you said it was a bad chess move.

    OK, I guess personal attacks can only be started by people other than you.
    Your strawman (again), I'll let you have fun blowing it over.

    Having a web site with at least news, a basic calendar and other relevant information should have been a priority more than a decade ago. By now we have come to expect a web site symptomatic of an ACF that doesn't really care: with a 2104 GP calendar and a self-confessed person with a lack of web skills updating the newsletters as far as April. (And I appreciate the fine work you do liaising with FIDE - the web site should obviously not be your responsibility.)
    [..]
    This is a much broader website issue and would be better addressed on a thread about the website. The most recent thread for discussing the website (as opposed to the specific issue of website updates) that I can find was http://www.chesschat.org/showthread....46-ACF-Website so I will copy and paste the comments there.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham View Post
    It's not false, and it was no more a personal attack than if I played a bad chess move and you said it was a bad chess move.



    Your strawman (again), I'll let you have fun blowing it over.



    This is a much broader website issue and would be better addressed on a thread about the website. The most recent thread for discussing the website (as opposed to the specific issue of website updates) that I can find was http://www.chesschat.org/showthread....46-ACF-Website so I will copy and paste the comments there.
    I agree that a thread split is reasonable but surely it would be better to combine the Australian Open fiasco, Junior Selections fiasco and ACF web site fiasco into one thread and just call it the ACF Ineptitude thread. Then it would be possible to include the ACF's failure to pass on Anton Smirnov's World Cup contract (meaning he almost missed the tournament) and the ACF's decision to not rate the Australian Junior Masters Grandmaster tournament last year because it clashed with a national schools event. (The decision was rescinded before real damage was done.)

  13. #43
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Thread temporarily closed

    One poster on this thread keeps proliferating off-topic complaints about the ACF that are not in response to points made by anybody else, and there has been no on-topic discussion of the matter of the future format of the Australian Open for several posts.

    Therefore the thread is closed until someone lets me know that they have an on-topic contribution to make.

    Anyone wishing to discuss this decision may do so in the Help and Feedback section only.

    (PS: anyone who wants to start a general anti-ACF whinging thread is welcome to do so at any time.)
    Last edited by Kevin Bonham; 30-08-2018 at 08:04 PM.

  14. #44
    CC Candidate Master Javier Gil's Avatar
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    4 double rounds for what should be the most important tournament of the year in Australia??
    Seriously????
    This is just unbelieveable. Which other country would do something like this for a National Championship?
    No wonder so many people are deciding to take part in the 126th New Zealand Chess Congress instead of this...
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  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Javier Gil View Post
    4 double rounds for what should be the most important tournament of the year in Australia??
    Seriously????
    This is just unbelieveable. Which other country would do something like this for a National Championship?
    No wonder so many people are deciding to take part in the 126th New Zealand Chess Congress instead of this...
    Personally I think we should just be grateful for Peter and his team at Box Hill for stepping in and running an event when no one else has put their hand up to run it.

    As to the format, it's not ideal for sure, however other events had already claimed the usual space of the tournament and as such something else needed to be considered. Unfortunately that time of year is super busy with multiple events and unlike Europe, the Oceanic region just doesn't have the player base to have lots of clashing events.

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