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  1. #1
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    Byes Byes Byes....

    More on the issue of Byes.

    There tends to be a trend for Bye numbers to be increased in the last couple of years.

    Right now, Victorian State Championship is taking place and one of the players started the event...with 3 byes (2 half point byes and 1 0 bye so effectively - starting out in rd 4, with 1/3). I am curious, if there are no rules/guidelines for how many games to play and when to ''commence'' one's play...can someone start in a state championship say....rd 7 out of 9? Should organisers accept/reject tournament applications based on the number of buys requested etc?

    I guess it has been happening before ...but what I find particularly interesting this time is that it is happening...in State Championships.
    P.S. To make it clear I am NOT against this practice at all..in fact given that I have been playing slow chess for years - If I am to make a hypothetical comeback..sounds like an option to consider .
    Last edited by MichaelBaron; 26-07-2018 at 04:29 PM.
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  2. #2
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Regarding half-point byes, for L1 tournaments they are not allowed by FIDE (FIDE Competition (Tournament) Rules). L1 tournaments are

    L1: Official FIDE events as defined by the FIDE Events Commission (D.IV.01.1) or FIDE
    World Championship and Olympiad Commission (D.I, D.II)

    Note: "FIDE events" does not mean all FIDE-rated events.

    For L2, L3, L4 tournaments they cannot be given in the final round. These are:

    L2: Competitions where FIDE titles and title norms can be earned
    L3: FIDE Rated Competitions
    L4: All other competitions

    However FIDE regulations are not binding on L4 tournaments, only recommended by FIDE.

    There is no restriction on zero-point byes.

    The FIDE Arbiters Manual notes:

    Normally such point byes may be given to players who cannot be present in the
    first and in the second round of the tournament. It is advisable not to be given in late
    rounds and especially in the last round, because they can affect the final standings
    and the prize distribution of the tournament.

    State Championships are for state associations to decide on (subject to the restriction against half-point byes in the final round if the event is FIDE-rated). The Tasmanian Championships does not allow half-point byes. The Victorian Championships is obviously just a state title for the sake of having a state title rather than a serious contest of the strongest Victorian players so I guess that it is no surprise standards are relaxed for a multi-week event.

    At one stage one of the FIDE commissions (forget which) was saying that only one half-point bye per player should be allowed for an event under the Swiss system but there doesn't seem to be any trace of this in the current rules.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham View Post
    Regarding half-point byes, for L1 tournaments they are not allowed by FIDE (FIDE Competition (Tournament) Rules). L1 tournaments are

    L1: Official FIDE events as defined by the FIDE Events Commission (D.IV.01.1) or FIDE
    World Championship and Olympiad Commission (D.I, D.II)

    Note: "FIDE events" does not mean all FIDE-rated events.

    For L2, L3, L4 tournaments they cannot be given in the final round. These are:

    L2: Competitions where FIDE titles and title norms can be earned
    L3: FIDE Rated Competitions
    L4: All other competitions

    However FIDE regulations are not binding on L4 tournaments, only recommended by FIDE.

    There is no restriction on zero-point byes.

    The FIDE Arbiters Manual notes:

    Normally such point byes may be given to players who cannot be present in the
    first and in the second round of the tournament. It is advisable not to be given in late
    rounds and especially in the last round, because they can affect the final standings
    and the prize distribution of the tournament.

    State Championships are for state associations to decide on (subject to the restriction against half-point byes in the final round if the event is FIDE-rated). The Tasmanian Championships does not allow half-point byes. The Victorian Championships is obviously just a state title for the sake of having a state title rather than a serious contest of the strongest Victorian players so I guess that it is no surprise standards are relaxed for a multi-week event.

    At one stage one of the FIDE commissions (forget which) was saying that only one half-point bye per player should be allowed for an event under the Swiss system but there doesn't seem to be any trace of this in the current rules.
    So am I right to assume that there are no rules related to specific bye numbers taken?
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    More on the issue of Byes.

    There tends to be a trend for Bye numbers to be increased in the last couple of years.

    Right now, Victorian State Championship is taking place and one of the players started the event...with 3 byes (2 half point byes and 1 0 bye so effectively - starting out in rd 4, with 1/3). I am curious, if there are no rules/guidelines for how many games to play and when to ''commence'' one's play...can someone start in a state championship say....rd 7 out of 9? Should organisers accept/reject tournament applications based on the number of buys requested etc?

    I guess it has been happening before ...but what I find particularly interesting this time is that it is happening...in State Championships.
    P.S. To make it clear I am NOT against this practice at all..in fact given that I have been playing slow chess for years - If I am to make a hypothetical comeback..sounds like an option to consider .
    In most Swisses that I run, I limit players to a maximum of 2 half-point byes, and not for either of the last 2 rounds. I would like to be able to apply the same rules should I run a WA Championship in the future.

    Though, different organisers have different practices. Perth's Metropolitan Chess Club seems to have no restrictions on the number of half-point byes that can be claimed. In the recent Metro Open, Joe Klimczak won his Round 1 game and then took 6 half-point byes to finish on 4/7: http://metrochessclub.org.au/metroopen.html
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Hardegen View Post
    In most Swisses that I run, I limit players to a maximum of 2 half-point byes, and not for either of the last 2 rounds. I would like to be able to apply the same rules should I run a WA Championship in the future.

    Though, different organisers have different practices. Perth's Metropolitan Chess Club seems to have no restrictions on the number of half-point byes that can be claimed. In the recent Metro Open, Joe Klimczak won his Round 1 game and then took 6 half-point byes to finish on 4/7: http://metrochessclub.org.au/metroopen.html
    What was his rationale as opposed to withdrawing if he can not play? Was he eligible for prizes?
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    What was his rationale as opposed to withdrawing if he can not play? Was he eligible for prizes?
    I don't know the full details as I don't play at that club. As I understand it, he was ill. Normally if a player is too ill to continue, then they withdraw. So I'm not sure what his rationale for staying in the tournament was.

    He didn't win a rating prize, but I do not know whether the club would have deemed him to be eligible for one or not. Surely he would have had a strong case to claim a prize, had he finished with more points than his rivals.
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  7. #7
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    So am I right to assume that there are no rules related to specific bye numbers taken?
    I am not aware of anything beyond what I mentioned.

    A personal view: not a big fan of allowing half-point byes in the middle rounds of weekenders. If someone needs to take a bye for rounds 1-2 of a weekender, for instance if the event starts on Friday or they need time to travel in, fine. But when a player is able to win a tournament after taking a half-point freshness break in the middle of what would have otherwise been a 3-game day, I think that's wrong. They should have to have some valid reason to take it.

    For multi-week tournaments I think it's hard to run them fairly without allowing either postponements or half-point byes. If you allow neither then the event becomes an attendance championship. We've tried really hard at Hobart to make sure our club champs isn't one of those.

  8. #8
    CC Grandmaster Garvinator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Hardegen View Post
    Though, different organisers have different practices. Perth's Metropolitan Chess Club seems to have no restrictions on the number of half-point byes that can be claimed. In the recent Metro Open, Joe Klimczak won his Round 1 game and then took 6 half-point byes to finish on 4/7: http://metrochessclub.org.au/metroopen.html
    As almost every event has the rule that there are no half point byes in the last round and it is common practice that to complete the event, the player must have played in the last round, that this situation should not have occurred.

    An ill player can be granted approved withdrawal status, but they should not be given 6 half point byes. As soon as they can not complete the event, they should be withdrawn from the event and can not receive any more points.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    More on the issue of Byes.

    There tends to be a trend for Bye numbers to be increased in the last couple of years.

    Right now, Victorian State Championship is taking place and one of the players started the event...with 3 byes (2 half point byes and 1 0 bye so effectively - starting out in rd 4, with 1/3). I am curious, if there are no rules/guidelines for how many games to play and when to ''commence'' one's play...can someone start in a state championship say....rd 7 out of 9? Should organisers accept/reject tournament applications based on the number of buys requested etc?

    I guess it has been happening before ...but what I find particularly interesting this time is that it is happening...in State Championships.
    P.S. To make it clear I am NOT against this practice at all..in fact given that I have been playing slow chess for years - If I am to make a hypothetical comeback..sounds like an option to consider .
    I took the extraordinary step of reading post one of that thread, wherein I found the answer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Leonid Sandler View Post
    Byes: 2 half point byes may be taken in rounds 1 to 7
    meep meep

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham View Post
    ... taking a half-point freshness break in the middle of what would have otherwise been a 3-game day.
    I think this is an argument in favour of permitting mid-tournament half-point byes. If somebody is silly enough to sling away half a point without knowing how exhausting their game would have been (especially if they have to claim the bye prior to the start of the previous round) and probably put themselves on sudden death for the rest of the event, on the off-chance that they will be so reinvigorated as to more than recoup their loss in the following round, then I would be delighted to allow them to.

    Getting back to the original question, somebody who joins in Round 7 on two half and four zero byes will be on 1/6 and won't be impacting the outcome of the tournament. In any case if you have a Swiss, in which the outcome could be determined by people playing different fields and where the top contenders play a couple of rounds against back-markers in lieu of games against more testing opposition, then you are deeming a few compromises to be acceptable.

    Having said that, it would be unfortunate if the latecomer created a bye so it might be sensible to only accept such a late entry where it evened the numbers.

    In the case of the WA player I imagine that the circumstances were that his return was a week-by-week proposition and they didn't want him carving up bewildered novices rather than giving mid-table players a decent game.

  11. #11
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Rout View Post
    I think this is an argument in favour of permitting mid-tournament half-point byes. If somebody is silly enough to sling away half a point without knowing how exhausting their game would have been (especially if they have to claim the bye prior to the start of the previous round) and probably put themselves on sudden death for the rest of the event, on the off-chance that they will be so reinvigorated as to more than recoup their loss in the following round, then I would be delighted to allow them to.
    It depends on what their expected score in the game they miss out on playing as a result is. If it is a tournament with a couple of dominant players who are expected to win most of their games except against each other then it would be completely silly for either to take a half-point bye. Even if there are three or four dominant players, it's probably still silly since the player taking the bye will still have to play the other top seeds and throwing away half a point that could have been a win against a weaker player for a possible freshness advantage is a big risk.

    But if there are a large number of more or less equally strong players at the top and the tournament is relatively short, then by taking a half-point bye they're removing a game against another high-seeded player that on average would have been a draw anyway, and gaining a freshness advantage for one of their games against a fellow top seed.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham View Post
    It depends on what their expected score in the game they miss out on playing as a result is ...
    I've seen people taking byes for the evening round in events like the NSW Open where play would go to 1am, or the fourth round of a 60/10 weekender. Generally not players among the top seeds.

    I'd be flabbergasted (but as noted above, not disappointed) if anybody thought the pace of Tasmanian chess events was so gruelling that it would be worth taking a bye to save energy. Certainly in the recent Tasmanian Open where byes were permitted up to the middle round of Sunday nobody thought that way, not even the oldest player in the field (no, not me).

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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    What was his rationale as opposed to withdrawing if he can not play? Was he eligible for prizes?
    I played in that tournament; the DOP told the players that Joe didn't want to play (for health reasons) but would do so if there would otherwise be an odd number of people and someone (else) would have to get a bye*. Since Joe's roughly in the middle of the club rating-wise, giving him half-point byes would keep the pairings reasonable if he were called on to play. It was suggested that he wouldn't be eligible for a prize if he "earned" it through half-point byes.

    *(Though one player got a full-point bye in round six, so perhaps by then Joe had fully "withdrawn" but the DOP just left his player status in Vega the same, collecting half-point byes and making the cross table look funny. )

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    Quote Originally Posted by pappubahry View Post
    I played in that tournament; the DOP told the players that Joe didn't want to play (for health reasons) but would do so if there would otherwise be an odd number of people and someone (else) would have to get a bye*. Since Joe's roughly in the middle of the club rating-wise, giving him half-point byes would keep the pairings reasonable if he were called on to play. It was suggested that he wouldn't be eligible for a prize if he "earned" it through half-point byes.

    *(Though one player got a full-point bye in round six, so perhaps by then Joe had fully "withdrawn" but the DOP just left his player status in Vega the same, collecting half-point byes and making the cross table look funny. )
    makes sense....
    Probably good idea for other clubs to adopt
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  15. #15
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    I also trust that while there is no ''common policy'' for managing byes - clubs should be at least consistent throughout the events they manage.
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