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  1. #1
    CC Candidate Master drgibbon's Avatar
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    Rating change for games forfeited on time?

    A situation arose at the club recently where a player won a game by forfeit (i.e., his opponent did not arrive and hence played no moves). The winner was the lower rated player and thought that he should gain rating points since the clock was running and a move was on the board (he was white, the forfeited player was black). My understanding is that the winner gets the point for the tournament standings, but the game does not affect the rating of either player. That seems to be the situation according to the first post of this thread, but can anyone point me to the actual ACF/FIDE rules for this?

  2. #2
    CC Candidate Master drgibbon's Avatar
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    All good, I see it here in the FIDE regulations on ratings:

    5.
    Unplayed Games

    5.1
    Whether these occur because of forfeiture or any other reason, they are not counted. Any game where both players have made at least one move will be rated.

  3. #3
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drgibbon View Post
    A situation arose at the club recently where a player won a game by forfeit (i.e., his opponent did not arrive and hence played no moves). The winner was the lower rated player and thought that he should gain rating points since the clock was running and a move was on the board (he was white, the forfeited player was black). My understanding is that the winner gets the point for the tournament standings, but the game does not affect the rating of either player. That seems to be the situation according to the first post of this thread, but can anyone point me to the actual ACF/FIDE rules for this?
    You are correct and it is still the same as in my previous post.

    https://www.fide.com/fide/handbook.h...7&view=article

    5. Unplayed Games

    5.1

    Whether these occur because of forfeiture or any other reason, they are not counted. Any game where both players have made at least one move will be rated.
    (my bold and underline).

    The ACF follows the FIDE rule for ACF ratings, so that, for instance, mobile phone "forfeits" after each side has made a move are still rated losses.

  4. #4
    CC Candidate Master drgibbon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham View Post
    The ACF follows the FIDE rule for ACF ratings, so that, for instance, mobile phone "forfeits" after each side has made a move are still rated losses.
    Good to know this, cheers.

  5. #5
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    Rule 5.1 says that a game with one move each is rated but doesn't state the converse - that is, that a game is necessarily excluded from rating if less than one move is played by each player. Are games which go 1.c4 Black resigns or, more plausibly, 1.c4 draw agreed or 1.c4 and either player's phone rings, still rated or are they classified as "unplayed"?

  6. #6
    CC Candidate Master drgibbon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Rout View Post
    Rule 5.1 says that a game with one move each is rated but doesn't state the converse - that is, that a game is necessarily excluded from rating if less than one move is played by each player. Are games which go 1.c4 Black resigns or, more plausibly, 1.c4 draw agreed or 1.c4 and either player's phone rings, still rated or are they classified as "unplayed"?
    I guess it depends how you define an "unplayed" game. To me the game would be played if both players are present (even if there's only one move on the board). That would fit with 5.1, but I'm not sure if FIDE actually defines what an unplayed game is.

  7. #7
    CC Candidate Master drgibbon's Avatar
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    Well, according to the FIDE laws of chess 2018, it looks like a one move draw can't happen:

    5.2.3 The game is drawn upon agreement between the two players during the game , provided both players have made at least one move. This immediately ends the game.
    but a one move resignation is possible:

    5.1.2 The game is won by the player whose opponent declares he resigns. This immediately ends the game.
    So it seems as if a one move draw technically can't happen, and a move one game where black (or white) resigns (or either player's phone rings) would be counted as played and rated (but I suppose this could be argued against).
    Last edited by drgibbon; 04-07-2018 at 11:06 AM.

  8. #8
    Illuminati Bill Gletsos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drgibbon View Post
    Well, according to the FIDE laws of chess 2018, it looks like a one move draw can't happen:



    but a one move resignation is possible:



    So it seems as if a one move draw technically can't happen, and a move one game where black (or white) resigns (or either player's phone rings) would be counted as played and rated (but I suppose this could be argued against).
    You are confusing the Laws of Chess with the FIDE Rating Regulations.

    The rating regulation is clear.

    Any game where both players have made at least one move will be rated.
    Any game that doesn't meet this condition will not be rated.
    Hence 1. e4 then black resigns won't be rated, however 1. e4 e5 black resigns is rated.
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  9. #9
    CC Candidate Master drgibbon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Gletsos View Post
    You are confusing the Laws of Chess with the FIDE Rating Regulations.

    The rating regulation is clear.

    Any game that doesn't meet this condition will not be rated.
    Hence 1. e4 then black resigns won't be rated, however 1. e4 e5 black resigns is rated.
    I was referring to Ian Rout's point, in that the rules stipulate what must be rated (i.e., any game with a minimum of two moves), but not that everything else must necessarily be unrated. For example, if it said "For a game to be rated, both players must have made at least one move", then that would fit with what you are saying, but they way they've written 5.1 requires the assumption that everything else must be unrated (not an unreasonable assumption, but still). Personally, I think if the black player turned up to the board and resigned without moving then they should be penalized on rating (that's a played game to me). Anyway, pretty pedantic stuff, but the 5.1 rule is not well written in my opinion.

  10. #10
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drgibbon View Post
    Anyway, pretty pedantic stuff, but the 5.1 rule is not well written in my opinion.
    A high percentage of FIDE rules are not well written when it comes to pedantry-proofing. Quite a few are badly written fullstop.

    As noted the difference between (1.c4 and black never shows up and forfeits) and (1.c4 Black Resigns) is that Black is present in the latter case. However the presence of both players isn't sufficient by itself to make a game a played game since it is also possible to have a forfeit despite both players being present (eg Black turns up but tells the arbiter he must forfeit the game before it commences.)

    Actually I had a weird case of something along these lines at my club a few weeks ago. Our club champs rules allow for postponements but the player wishing to postpone must notify their request by 6:30 pm sharp. In this case Black was late and had not requested a postponement by 6:30. White was present at 6:45, made a move and pressed Black's clock. The forfeit time was 7:15. At 7:11 Black texted me saying that he resigned the game because he could not arrive in time. I scored it as a forfeit.
    Last edited by Kevin Bonham; 04-07-2018 at 11:35 PM.

  11. #11
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    The scenario of a player resigning on move 1 will be rare and in any case will involve some peculiarity that makes rating it something of a side issue. I think the question of a game being terminated by mobile phone (or other disciplinary issue) before Black moves is more interesting, since it will happen from time to time, and apart from rating the interpretation also affects the pairings. I doubt that there is an intention to consider this "unplayed" but if we reverse engineer rule 5.1 then that seems to be the conclusion.

    A related issue is whether you can be defaulted at all for a mobile phone ringing when the game is still unplayed.

    Quote Originally Posted by drgibbon View Post
    Anyway, pretty pedantic stuff, but the 5.1 rule is not well written in my opinion.
    Possibly it was designed to cover precisely the scenario you raised and at the time it seemed the most economical way to do it.
    Last edited by Ian Rout; 05-07-2018 at 04:55 PM. Reason: Typo

  12. #12
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Rout View Post
    I think the question of a game being terminated by mobile phone (or other disciplinary issue) before Black moves is more interesting, since it will happen from time to time, and apart from rating the interpretation also affects the pairings.
    Yes in the pairing rules a player cannot receive a bye if they have won a game on forfeit caused by their opponent not appearing on time. However that says nothing about a forfeit caused by the opponent turning up but refusing to play, or any of the other "unplayed game" situations we've been discussing, so a player who has won a game in such a way might say they should also be eligible for a bye. It would be awkward if a game had to be treated as played for pairing purposes and unplayed for ratings purposes and I'm sure this is not intended by any of the commissions involved.

    A related issue is whether you can be defaulted at all for a mobile phone ringing when the game is still unplayed.
    I'd say yes because the time at which you can be defaulted is determined by the Laws and the Laws do not give any definition of an unplayed game that would limit it. A player who is found to have an unauthorised phone on them "during a game" loses and it seems that a game has started once white's clock is pressed, even if it might later become an "unplayed game" because of a forfeit or other issue.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham View Post
    Yes in the pairing rules a player cannot receive a bye if they have won a game on forfeit caused by their opponent not appearing on time.
    Maybe I am pedantic, but such players cannot receive the pairing-allocated bye (or PAB). They are still eligible for half-point-bye (technically, also for zero-point-bye, which corresponds to an announced/known absence - i.e. the player is not paired).

    However that says nothing about a forfeit caused by the opponent turning up but refusing to play,
    This is not considered a forfeit. If a player is present but doesn't make a move, the game should be recorded as a played game lasting less than one move (remember that a played game cannot be scheduled again in later rounds, while a forfeited game can).

    or any of the other "unplayed game" situations we've been discussing, so a player who has won a game in such a way might say they should also be eligible for a bye.
    True. A player who wins a played game lasting less than one move is eligible for a later PAB.

    It would be awkward if a game had to be treated as played for pairing purposes and unplayed for ratings purposes and I'm sure this is not intended by any of the commissions involved.
    Well...

    Many FIDE endorsed programs (Swiss Manager and Vega among them) allow the arbiter to enter any result with the "unrated" attribute, which specifically covers the played game lasting less than one move situation.

    If one looks at the Tournament Report File (TRF) specification (see https://www.fide.com/FIDE/handbook/C04Annex2_TRF16.pdf), one will find in position 99 the possibility to enter a result-code (W, D, L) when "The scheduled game lasted less than one move".

    Last year, in a tournament I arbited, after the round started, with the Black-player already seated at the board, the White-player showed up and told me he could not play because he was not feeling well. I recorded that game as 0-1 unrated (then my national rating officers forced me to change it in a 0-1 forfeit, because they were not prepared to deal with "unrated" games - but that's another story).

    If one says it is a confusing situation, I agree wholeheartedly. And all arises from the poor clarity of the rule 5.1, mentioned in this thread.

  14. #14
    Illuminati Bill Gletsos's Avatar
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    The following game results are rated:

    1-0 - White wins - Includes games covered by the mobile phone article 11.3.2.2.
    0-1 - Black wins - Includes games covered by the mobile phone article 11.3.2.2.
    1/2-1/2 - Draw
    0-1/2 - White loses, Black draws
    1/2-0 - White draws, Black loses
    0-0 - Double loss - Due to the arbiter declaring the game lost for both players

    Both Swiss Manager and Vega allow the following results which are not rated:

    1U-0U - White wins - White is present and has moved, Black is present but has not made his first move. Could also be due to the mobile phone article 11.3.2.2 where Black has not made his first move.
    0U-1U - Black wins - White is present but has not made his first move, Black is present. Could also be due to the mobile phone article 11.3.2.2 where White has not made his first move.
    1/2U-1/2U - Draw
    0U-1/2U - White loses, Black draws
    1/2U-0U - White draws, Black loses
    0U-0U - Double loss

    Note in the rules prior to July 2014 it was possible for a player to lose due to a mobile phone but the opponent only be awarded a draw if the opponent could not win the game by any series of legal moves.

    Does anyone want to suggest circumstances in which they believe 0-1/2, 1/2-0, 1/2U-1/2U, 0U-1/2U, 1/2U-0U and 0U-0U would apply.
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  15. #15
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Gletsos View Post
    Does anyone want to suggest circumstances in which they believe 0-1/2, 1/2-0, 1/2U-1/2U, 0U-1/2U, 1/2U-0U and 0U-0U would apply.
    0-1/2 and 1/2-0: One player cannot win with any series of legal moves. However at this point the opponent starts behaving so poorly while trying to win that the arbiter rules that the opponent deserves to lose the game. As it is clear the poor behaviour only started after the player could no longer win with any series of legal moves, 0-1/2 is more appropriate than 0-1.

    0U-0U - An argument breaks out between the players after white's first move but before black has replied (perhaps they are arguing because white refused to shake hands before moving, for instance), and both players behave so poorly that they are defaulted. Or, white makes his first move, while in sitting down to play move 1 black inadvertently presses a button on a mobile phone in his pocket, causing his phone to dial white's phone, which also rings causing both players to lose the game.

    0U-1/2U, 1/2U-0U - A similar situation to the above argument-on-move-1 case but the arbiters decide that while both players have behaved poorly, one is much more to blame than the other. They decide that the one who is more to blame loses the game but that their partly guilty opponent should be given half a point rather than a full point or a zero.

    1/2U-1/2U - Move 1 is played by white and then an unexpected incident occurs, not the fault of either player, that greatly delays any possibility of resuming the game beyond the expected end of the tournament. As both players will miss their flights if they resume the game it is agreed to allow the game to be drawn.
    Last edited by Kevin Bonham; 07-07-2018 at 07:17 PM.

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