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Thread: Chess scandal

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bulldozer View Post
    The chess examples are irrelevant in my opinion. But there is a very strong evidence by Ms Solozhenkina. Given only this evidence, it's far less than 10% of being not guilty.
    You are right to examine the evidence closely. (There are others here who don't firmly believe the evidence at all, but merely stoke the coals in the hope that there will eventuate a mud-slinging contest.)

    Can you explain how you ascertained the probability of Bibisara being not guilty to be less than 10%?

    Sure, if you believe the `toilet' evidence, then you believe she is guilty. However, this evidence is not strong -- there are serious questions pertaining to its reliability.

    1. The testimony is hearsay. Who knows what Miss Solozhenkina actually alleged to her father initially, if anything. I suspect he has just made the whole thing up and told his daughter later to go along with it.

    2. Miss Solozhenkina is not the most reliable witness, given she is a weaker rival who would benefit from any finding against Miss Assaubayeva.

    3. Whatever happened in the toilet, the evidence is severely weakened by the failure of Miss Solozhenkina to raise it with any authority at the time, and also by the fact that no other witnesses have come forward to confirm the allegations. They will find it very difficult now to prove that any wrongdoing was committed. (However, the Solozhenkins are well aware that it is also impossible, after the fact, for Bibisara to disprove the allegations and overturn the presumption of guilt -- so they will continue to attest to her guilt in the hope that others will join in.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bulldozer View Post
    Normally, people don't make up such false accusations in chess.
    Normally people don't rape, kill or commit armed robbery either. Even though your statement is true, I'm not sure that it would be ruled as admissible.

    If the chess examples are irrelevant, then is there something more to the prosecution case that we are all missing out on?
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  2. #32
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    So both guilty/not guilty viewpoints have their merits. This is why I would simply wait and see how she plays from now onwards and whether she will remain 2400+ or not.
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  3. #33
    CC Grandmaster ER's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    So both guilty/not guilty viewpoints have their merits. This is why I would simply wait and see how she plays from now onwards and whether she will remain 2400+ or not.
    Α very logical and valid point!
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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elliott Renzies View Post
    SARA CAN WAIT IN THE QUEUE!!

    Meanwhile another (*) post by the Anogeia Chess Club regarding Anton's success in Crete
    is going viral on Face Book. Looks like the youngest ever Australian GM is particularly popular amongst the girls!!!
    [/I]
    I have a video of both the 2 games of lightning between Anton and the winner of the other event and the closing ceremony. It is in media player .vob format. I am not sure how to attach it or translate to yutube format. If anybody knows how to do it, I am happy to send him/her the files.
    Last edited by Vlad; 13-10-2017 at 01:56 PM.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    So both guilty/not guilty viewpoints have their merits. This is why I would simply wait and see how she plays from now onwards and whether she will remain 2400+ or not.
    Well, I am not comfortable with calling into question all past achievements of a player in the absence of any real evidence. Doing so devalues these achievements and is defamation.
    Last edited by Andrew Hardegen; 13-10-2017 at 02:07 PM.
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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Hardegen View Post
    Think about it: if you observed a main rival using a communication device in the toilet, seemingly to receive information, what would you do? Would you report it to the arbiter immediately so that the perpetrator could be observed and likely caught red-handed? Or would you keep quiet and just tell a family member, several hours after it happened?
    I was on a jury in a criminal case a while back.

    A schoolboy observed something nefarious. Did he immediately report it to the headmaster? No. Why not? Because he was 13 and did not know what he should do. So he waited until he got home and told his father.

  7. #37
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    In controversies to do with junior chess, the level of vicarious outrage from parents, coaches and other such associates often greatly exceeds that of the players themselves.

    There have also been several false accusations of cheating in adult chess - Topalov against Kramnik, Mamedyarov against Kurnosov, much of the field against Sandu. Of course there have been true accusations too.

    As these allegations refer to a FIDE title event they should have been following the appropriate procedure for making accusations of cheating, which is through the arbiter first and foremost. I can't see any evidence in the Google Translate of the article that this was done. Was it?

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham View Post
    In controversies to do with junior chess, the level of vicarious outrage from parents, coaches and other such associates often greatly exceeds that of the players themselves.

    There have also been several false accusations of cheating in adult chess - Topalov against Kramnik, Mamedyarov against Kurnosov, much of the field against Sandu. Of course there have been true accusations too.

    As these allegations refer to a FIDE title event they should have been following the appropriate procedure for making accusations of cheating, which is through the arbiter first and foremost. I can't see any evidence in the Google Translate of the article that this was done. Was it?

    What makes the situation particularly interesting is that both girls are members of the Russian National team so I guess at some point the National Chess Federation will finally have to make some kind of decision..something that they have been skillfully avoiding so far.
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  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham View Post
    In controversies to do with junior chess, the level of vicarious outrage from parents, coaches and other such associates often greatly exceeds that of the players themselves.
    This is what GM Solozhenkin wrote about his daughter:
    PS It is clear that the analysis of games in my article is subjective and secondary. More importantly, what interested in my site editor Eugene Surov before publication. If you simplify the question, it would sound: is Lisa telling the truth or not?
    I will answer so. Lisa has one quality: she never speaks badly of anyone in our intra-family communication. And to stipulate someone for her inner world is simply impossible.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham View Post
    There have also been several false accusations of cheating in adult chess - Topalov against Kramnik, Mamedyarov against Kurnosov, much of the field against Sandu. Of course there have been true accusations too.
    Strictly speaking, they are questionable rather than false.
    Not against Sandu for me though - I strongly believe she was cheating.
    If I remember right nobody claimed that he/she caught the suspect with a device. But Ms Solozhenkina did pretty much that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham View Post
    As these allegations refer to a FIDE title event they should have been following the appropriate procedure for making accusations of cheating, which is through the arbiter first and foremost. I can't see any evidence in the Google Translate of the article that this was done. Was it?
    He did but he violated the law anyway - by bringing the story to the public.
    The next morning I wrote a statement on the form established by the anti-cheater committee of FIDE and handed it personally to the main arbiter. Described a "case in the toilet", briefly outlined the content of this text. At his request, he sent all this in writing to his box. I asked him in writing (in a statement) and verbally - to check Bibisar Asaubaev for the availability of equipment that allows receiving electronic prompts.
    I've edited the translation a bit as the original didn't make sense. My changes are in bold.

    What's new:
    1) Someone points out that Bibisara is not playing in some tournaments that she was probably expected to play.
    2) GM Solozhenkin released a text chat between Lisa and her mother that happened after the game. Lisa was telling how she caught Bibisara. Nothing very new but this reduces the probability that GM Solozhenkin made up the whole story himself - as more people are involved now (+ mother).

  10. #40
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    GM Solozhenkin has been banned by the FIDE Ethics Commission for 18 months (half suspended) over his accusations.

    Formal decision: http://ethics.fide.com/images/storie...sion_final.pdf

    chess.com report: https://www.chess.com/news/view/gm-s...ow-gms-protest

  11. #41
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    there is also a letter to support Solozhenkin that has been signed by 40GMs that is asking FIDE ethics commission to review.
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  12. #42
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    Originally it was signed by 24 GMs - some of these GMs mentioned on facebook that they did not know that they signed the letter but nevertheless they do not mind being included. Once the letter become public, more GMs have joined the club.
    Last edited by Vlad; 14-04-2018 at 04:13 PM.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    there is also a letter to support Solozhenkin that has been signed by 40GMs that is asking FIDE ethics commission to review.
    Not sure the GM letter will help him. They don't try to claim his allegations have any substance, merely that he should be allowed to make them regardless. Plus he's a good bloke - but unless his claims are true he isn't. Indeed if it's really true that "grandmasters ... will interpret [the decision] as a signal to keep silence" and not accuse anybody who beats them of cheating then some would dispute that "Chess will suffer from it most of all."

    In any case the penalty is more toward the wet-lettuce end of the scale. The forthcoming defamation decision (due April 20 according to the article) sounds like more of a threat. I'm not familiar with Russian defamation law but on the surface the claims seem defamatory if they can't be backed up, and if one independent tribunal has found against him it's not implausible that another one will.

  14. #44
    CC Grandmaster Garvinator's Avatar
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    Before reading Kevin's post that the fide ethics commission has tossed somebody for this, I was wondering if the fide ethics commission was going to do anything.

    The procedure for these matters are very clear. If a player, or a group of players in a tournament believe that another player is using external assistance, they are to bring that to the attention of the chief arbiter and sign the official documents for complaint. If it is others, then still the correct course of action is to bring it the attenion of the fide ethics commission or some similar body.

    They do not go on to social media sites and defame all and sundry with their claims.

    The Sandu case has set the precedent here from the Fide ethics commission.

    Now, as for
    there is also a letter to support Solozhenkin that has been signed by 40GMs that is asking FIDE ethics commission to review.
    So what these reviewers are asking for is that the lynching party be let off the hook and given a free pass.

    Really, what grounds are there for a reversal of the decision?

    Seems like it is a case of- oh he's a nice guy, so lets give him a free pass. So the test is now. Is the accuser a nice guy or girl? If yes, free pass to make any accusation or not. If the accuser is an asshole, then give them the maximum sentence.

    What a ridiculous and unworkable standard!

    And to flip the coin around. For those who have said, oh the player is only 13 and could not possibly cheat. The ACF rubbed out a 14 year old who was found guilty of using computer assistance is an important tournament. And I am quite sure a couple of other teenagers have been sent on their way in OS tournaments as well.

    So to say, oh the player is too young and could not possibly cheat does not quite cut the mustard.

    Overall, there is a set laid out procedure here for dealing with cheating complaints through the fide anti cheating commission and then the fide ethics commission. The more that players learn to send their grievances through the commission, the better we will all be.

    Overall synopsis- I quite often believe that the accusers in these situations are not really concerned about finding the truth in their claims, but are more interested in throwing as much mud as possible and hoping that some of it sticks.

    And this is why the penalties from the Fide ethics commission needs to be long.

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