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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by idledim View Post
    All 3 Appeal judges have brilliant minds and a wealth of experience. For what it's worth, it is usually acknowledged that the dissenting judge is the most experienced. That they saw the law differently should mean, in my view, that the High Court grants leave to Appeal - because only it can finally rule on the correct approach in such cases. The majority view appears to be that, howsoever implausible or improbable each of the circumstances might be, none were impossible and it was therefore open to the jury to deliver a guilty verdict. The dissenting view seems to be that, when all the improbabilities and implausibilities are added up, they amount to practical impossibility.

    This is not a matter of whether anyone, whether they be the Appeal judges or learned commentators like John Finnis AO QC, has or has not reviewed the evidence. It is about judicial responses to evidence and obviously different understandings about that process of review. I think the High Court only grant Leave to Appeal in about 15 per cent of cases. I think John Finnis' response provides another reason why it should hear this Appeal.
    I am reminded of previous remarks:

    Quote Originally Posted by idledim View Post
    ...The court must also independently review the evidence. Indeed, the High Court has ruled that it must and I am confident it will do its duty.
    ...
    What happened to the confidence? Reviewing evidence seems (seemed) to be important, so I guess having access to it might be useful.

    In any case, of the 3 appeal court judges, one is the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of Victoria, another is President of the Victorian Court of Appeal, and the other is the dissenter.
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  2. #122
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    I have already indicated why I believe that the issue in the Pell case is not about whether the court properly reviewed the evidence, but about how courts should be directed to review evidence. I have also indicated that I believe all three judges have brilliant minds and a wealth of experience. The dissenting judge has more criminal law experience than either the Chief Justice or the President of the Victorian Court of Appeal - that's all. Indeed, Mark Weinberg has been described as Australia's most prominent criminal law jurist. Professor Mirko Bagaric (a Swinburne legal academic) described him as, 'clearly the brightest bloke on the Victorian Court of Appeal.' Mark Weinberg formed the view that the conviction was not safe. It is impossible to read his 204 page dissent without concluding that the High Court should grant George Pell special leave to Appeal. He lists a number of cases where, “notwithstanding the apparent credibility of a complainant in relation to an allegation of sexual abuse, the countervailing circumstances, including any defence evidence, have led the High Court to quash the conviction and enter a verdict of acquittal”.

    Here is the article by Mirko Bagaric: dissenting-judge-gives-pell-reason-to-clutch-at-high-court-lifeline
    Last edited by idledim; 11-09-2019 at 11:56 PM.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by idledim View Post
    Mark Weinberg formed the view that the conviction was not safe. It is impossible to read his 204 page dissent without concluding that the High Court should grant George Pell special leave to Appeal.
    Impossible would seem to be a term bandied about a lot of late in an incorrect usage.

    I would say that it is impossible to conclude that the majority view judges did not fully read and consider the dissenting opinion, and that being the case means that your assertion that for them to do so and come to the conclusion that they did being impossible is in itself an impossible assertion.


    He lists a number of cases where, “notwithstanding the apparent credibility of a complainant in relation to an allegation of sexual abuse, the countervailing circumstances, including any defence evidence, have led the High Court to quash the conviction and enter a verdict of acquittal”.
    And the fact that he was unable to persuade the other 2 brilliant jurists of that point of view is perhaps an indication that it's not as clear cut as some would like it to be.

    As though Pell attempting to take it to the high court is news to anybody.
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  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by road runner View Post
    Impossible would seem to be a term bandied about a lot of late in an incorrect usage.

    I would say that it is impossible to conclude that the majority view judges did not fully read and consider the dissenting opinion, and that being the case means that your assertion that for them to do so and come to the conclusion that they did being impossible is in itself an impossible assertion.
    If this is true, then it should be easy for you to show us where Anne Ferguson & Chris Maxwell indicate that George Pell should not be given special leave. Personally, I'd be surprised if such eminent jurists took it upon themselves to decide in advance what the High Court should decide. Indeed, one of the reasons for publishing reasons is to give higher courts an indication of the judges reasoning.

    In this case, whether or not compounding improbabilities should equal practical impossibility in the mind of the jury is now a question best addressed by the High Court.
    Last edited by idledim; 12-09-2019 at 08:49 AM.

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by idledim View Post
    If this is true, then it should be easy for you to show us where Anne Ferguson & Chris Maxwell indicate that George Pell should not be given special leave.
    indeed so, I refer you to the fact that they dismissed the appeal in full knowledge of the dissent opinion.

    In this case, whether or not compounding improbabilities should equal practical impossibility in the mind of the jury is now a question best addressed by the High Court.
    because you didn't get the answer you wanted.
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  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by road runner View Post
    indeed so, I refer you to the fact that they dismissed the appeal in full knowledge of the dissent opinion.

    because you didn't get the answer you wanted.
    The question is whether or not special leave should be granted. When the majority refer to the dissenting opinion they do not address this - nor should they. The majority view was that it was open to the jury to convict because, in their view, none of the 13 or so circumstances described by the Defence as impossibilities was actually impossible. The dissenting opinion was that compounding improbabilities equals - as it does, said Mark Weinberg, in game theory, practical impossibility. In other words, by misunderstanding your task, you've avoided it. It really is as simple as that in this case.

  7. #127
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    For some, including the jury and two of the appeals judges, the perceived need to punish the Catholic church trumped normal notions of ‘beyond reasonable doubt’—in this case an uncorroborated accusation about something that allegedly occurred decades ago, without the slightest forensic evidence.
    Last edited by Capablanca-Fan; 12-09-2019 at 02:26 PM.
    “The destructive capacity of the individual, however vicious, is small; of the state, however well-intentioned, almost limitless. Expand the state and that destructive capacity necessarily expands, too, pari passu.”—Paul Johnson, Modern Times, 1983.

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    For some, including the jury and two of the appeals judges, the perceived need to punish the Catholic church trumped normal notions of ‘beyond reasonable doubt’—in this case an uncorroborated accusation about something that allegedly occurred decades ago, without the slightest forensic evidence.
    So everyone (including all twelve jurors!) who thinks Pell is guilty is driven by a need to punish the Catholic Church

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by idledim View Post
    The question is whether or not special leave should be granted. When the majority refer to the dissenting opinion they do not address this - nor should they. The majority view was that it was open to the jury to convict because, in their view, none of the 13 or so circumstances described by the Defence as impossibilities was actually impossible. The dissenting opinion was that compounding improbabilities equals - as it does, said Mark Weinberg, in game theory, practical impossibility. In other words, by misunderstanding your task, you've avoided it. It really is as simple as that in this case.
    My only task, such that I had any task at all, was to show that your assertion that it was impossible to disagree with the dissenting opinion was wrong, was really a lay down misere.

    But while we're talking about completing tasks, I am yet to hear any comment on why your confidence that the appeal court would duly hear the evidence and justly rule was thrown out the window after you heard their ruling. In the absence of such I will assume it's because it disagreed with your a priori position.

    Paedo Pell was looking forward to his day in court. Until he got convicted.
    His supporters were looking forward to the appeal, until it got rejected.
    Now their hoping for another round.

    It's a bit like a little kid who loses at rock paper scissors and wants to go for two out of three. Then when they lose again, they want best of 5. Convict Catholic Cardinal has it even better than that, he doesn't need to win best of 5, just once will do. Maybe if he rolls the dice often enough he'll get Yatzhee, until then his supports can believe what they want in spite of the evidence and its consideration.
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  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by road runner View Post
    My only task, such that I had any task at all, was to show that your assertion that it was impossible to disagree with the dissenting opinion was wrong, was really a lay down misere.

    But while we're talking about completing tasks, I am yet to hear any comment on why your confidence that the appeal court would duly hear the evidence and justly rule was thrown out the window after you heard their ruling. In the absence of such I will assume it's because it disagreed with your a priori position.

    Paedo Pell was looking forward to his day in court. Until he got convicted.
    His supporters were looking forward to the appeal, until it got rejected.
    Now their hoping for another round.

    It's a bit like a little kid who loses at rock paper scissors and wants to go for two out of three. Then when they lose again, they want best of 5. Convict Catholic Cardinal has it even better than that, he doesn't need to win best of 5, just once will do. Maybe if he rolls the dice often enough he'll get Yatzhee, until then his supports can believe what they want in spite of the evidence and its consideration.
    Please do not misquote me, RR - or else show where I have ever asserted that it was impossible to disagree with the dissenting opinion.You keep making this mistake. I keep reminding you that I did not say it - and you keep saying i said it. What i said in post # 122 was that it was impossible to read the dissenting opinion without concluding that the High Court should grant special leave in this case. This is very different from an assertion that the dissenting opinion must be right!

    It is also incorrect to assert that I have somehow lost my faith in the ability of the Victorian Court of Appeal to independently and properly review the evidence - the context of which was originally your failure to understand the responsibilities of the Victorian Court of Appeal when reviewing criminal convictions. You have continued to assert this rubbish despite my clear indications that, in my view, the issue is not about whether the court has done its job in reviewing the evidence; and that it is now, in the context of the two clearly competing principles revealed by the Majority judgment and the dissenting opinion, about how courts should be directed to review the evidence. That decent, brilliant and experienced judges should review the same evidence so differently ought to give rise to, at least the possibility, that the conviction is not safe. To suggest otherwise is either malicious or just plain silly.

    Your repeated misrepresentations of what I have actually said on this matter is nothing to do with me, of course - but that they are misrepresentations can be quickly and easily checked by anyone following this discussion.

  11. #131
    CC Grandmaster antichrist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    For some, including the jury and two of the appeals judges, the perceived need to punish the Catholic church trumped normal notions of ‘beyond reasonable doubt’—in this case an uncorroborated accusation about something that allegedly occurred decades ago, without the slightest forensic evidence.
    But couldn't the case of Jesus or God's existence be questioned on exactly the same grounds? As this issue is paramount to the RCC they should at least attempt to be consistent.
    Zionism is racism as defined by the UN, Israel by every dirty means available steals land and water, kill Palestinian freedom fighters and civilians, and operates an apartheid system to drive more Palestinians off their land

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by idledim View Post
    What i said in post # 122 was that it was impossible to read the dissenting opinion without concluding that the High Court should grant special leave in this case.
    An assertion which is 100% wrong. It is perfectly possible to read the entire judgement, and I invite you to do so, and not reach that conclusion.

    It is also incorrect to assert that I have somehow lost my faith in the ability of the Victorian Court of Appeal to independently and properly review the evidence -
    Actually I was asking you about it and when you didn't answer I drew a conclusion. Not answering every aspect of a post is fine, but to do so and then claim that someone else has not completed their task is inconsistent.

    the context of which was originally your failure to understand the responsibilities of the Victorian Court of Appeal when reviewing criminal convictions.
    Actually the context was me pointing out that 2 of the 3 grounds for appeal were technicalities that would be silly to grant, and that was borne out to be true in the majority and dissenting opinions alike.


    ... in the context of the two clearly competing principles revealed by the Majority judgment and the dissenting opinion, about how courts should be directed to review the evidence. That decent, brilliant and experienced judges should review the same evidence so differently ought to give rise to, at least the possibility, that the conviction is not safe. To suggest otherwise is either malicious or just plain silly.
    Not at all. It is perfectly possible to have 2 valid approaches to doing something. If very experienced judges are doing so, that would explain the difference far more readily that to suggest as you do that two of them have erred so fundamentally.
    Last edited by road runner; 13-09-2019 at 06:46 PM.
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  13. #133
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    They will try anything

    Choirboy can be believed - and Pell freed, Cardinal's lawyers say

    For more than four years, the fate of Australia’s most powerful Catholic cleric rested on the word of a former choirboy. For police, for the courts and the church, it all came down to the truthfulness, credibility and believability of a single witness, alone and unsupported in what he alleged against George Pell.

    In an application lodged this week for special leave to appeal his case to the High Court, Pell’s legal team shifted ground. It is both a vindication of the choirboy and a last bid by Pell, now serving a six-year prison sentence, to have his child sex convictions quashed.

    The Cardinal’s lawyers no longer question the credibility of the man who first told police in 2015 that Pell raped him and sexually assaulted a friend in St Patrick’s Cathedral when they were 13 years old. They no longer dismiss Pell’s accuser as a fantasist or argue that the County Court jury should have done the same. Instead, they contend that both sides of this bitterly contested prosecution should co-exist; that Pell’s accuser can be believed and the Cardinal acquitted of all charges and released from jail. ...

    To attract the interest of the High Court, Pell is not arguing that the jury’s verdict was unreasonable on all the evidence. That question has already been asked and answered before the Victorian Court of Appeal. ...
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