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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by idledim View Post
    My claim is merely that the verdict is not clearly unreasonable - or obviously wrong, to put it more simply. PB
    To repeat: There is absolutely no basis for this claim. If the verdict is obviously wrong, and thus clearly unreasonable, the court will so rule. I believe the Victorian Court of Appeal is efficient. On that basis, I'd expect a decision before August. For the court to rule that a verdict is obviously wrong within a day of hearing an Appeal would be highly unusual. I'm not familiar with any Victorian cases where a jury verdict has been overturned within a day of the Appeal being heard. Are you? If so, please share. If not, on what exactly do you base your contention?
    I'm not aware of any cases, but that may simply mean that there have been no cases where the jury verdict was obviously wrong. If the verdict was obviously wrong, wouldn't the VCA want to release Pell as soon as possible (and he's still in prison, so it's now two days)?

    EDIT: This is from Qld, but presumably the VCA would hold a similar view:
    The judges also made some interesting points in their statements that the Court strived to deliver an early judgement when there is only reasonable prospect of an appellant in custody being released, hence the one day hearing yesterday and the quick decision back today.
    Last edited by Patrick Byrom; 08-06-2019 at 11:26 AM. Reason: Example added.

  2. #77
    CC Grandmaster antichrist's Avatar
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    Big George is now facing new charges for allegedly protecting a Brother who was allegedly abusing boys.
    Zionism is racism as defined by the UN, Israel by every dirty means available steals land and water, kill Palestinian freedom fighters and civilians, and operates an apartheid system to drive more Palestinians off their land

  3. #78
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by antichrist View Post
    Big George is now facing new charges for allegedly protecting a Brother who was allegedly abusing boys.
    Seems he is being sued, not charged.
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  4. #79
    CC Grandmaster antichrist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham View Post
    Seems he is being sued, not charged.
    Sorry re error had heard on radio. I mixed with priests for decades and kind of hard to believe they subjected their congregation's children in such an off handed manner. As an altar boy the only cold-heartedness I witnessed was with a doctor of theology priest who would crack jokes all the way to funerals and back. Maybe I felt it because I knew these mourning people but he was new to the area.

    And there was the funny situation when someone's dog ate a child-vomited out communion host (wafer) that is the body and blood of Jesus. It did not concern him at all whereas I read decades later that the priest is supposed to immediately consecrate (bless) another wafer and thus turning it into the body and blood of Jesus, as a doctor he should have known that.

    I didn't mind doing funerals (that I never got paid for) because it got me out of school for a few hours whereas for weddings we were paid well.
    Last edited by antichrist; 08-06-2019 at 12:43 PM.
    Zionism is racism as defined by the UN, Israel by every dirty means available steals land and water, kill Palestinian freedom fighters and civilians, and operates an apartheid system to drive more Palestinians off their land

  5. #80
    CC Grandmaster Desmond's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by road runner View Post
    Yes the church isn't short of a quid when it comes to defending its own against child sex charges. Pity they don't follow the same approach to compensating victims.
    Maybe Pell could justify the outlay based on the money he "saved" the church over the years by denying just compensation, and telling people to be quiet and go away.
    Revealed: the true costs of George Pell's abuse compensation scheme

    The controversial scheme set up by George Pell to handle sex abuse claims against Melbourne’s Catholic Church spent almost as much money paying its independent commissioner as it did compensating hundreds of victims. The church’s own figures reveal that between 1996 and March 2014, the archdiocese spent $34.27 million to run its so-called Melbourne Response, but only $9.72 million – or 28 per cent of it – was used to compensate 307 child sex abuse victims.

    The bulk of the money during that period was spent on other operational costs for the scheme, including $7.8 million to employ barrister Peter O’Callaghan, QC, as its independent commissioner, and a further $4.7 million on general legal fees. Mr O’Callaghan’s job was to determine the credibility of victims’ claims and make suggestions about what action to take against alleged abusers.

    Another $432,000 was used to fund the compensation panel that made recommendations about ex gratia payments, and $11 million was used to fund the church counselling service known as Carelink, most of which was spent on staff and administration.
    ...

    So what's your excuse? To run like the devil's chasing you.

    See you in another life, brotha.

  6. #81
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by idledim View Post
    My claim is merely that the verdict is not clearly unreasonable - or obviously wrong, to put it more simply. PB

    To repeat: There is absolutely no basis for this claim. If the verdict is obviously wrong, and thus clearly unreasonable, the court will so rule. I believe the Victorian Court of Appeal is efficient. On that basis, I'd expect a decision before August. For the court to rule that a verdict is obviously wrong within a day of hearing an Appeal would be highly unusual. I'm not familiar with any Victorian cases where a jury verdict has been overturned within a day of the Appeal being heard. Are you? If so, please share. If not, on what exactly do you base your contention?
    I agree. It's hardly beyond reasonable doubt when there was only one complainant who was uncorroborated and when the alleged acts were decades ago. But between the first trial and the second, the Royal Commission and ScoMo had weighed in about Catholic sexual abuse, replacing presumption of innocence with presumption of guilt. The jury members were most likely influenced by this mentality. E.g.

    Why I find the George Pell verdict hard to believe
    Melanie McDonagh, Spectator, 26 February 2019

    But if the implausibilities in the prosecution case have not changed, what has is the force of the assumption that you are innocent until proven guilty. In cases of child abuse that is no longer a given. After the royal commission into child abuse and the Victoria state’s own parliamentary inquiry, the shared assumption in Australia – and here – seems to be that anyone who alleges abuse must be believed, unless, perhaps, the evidence to the contrary is overwhelming. Indeed we have this on good authority. In his parliamentary apology to victims of child sex abuse (two weeks before the rerun of the Pell trial), the Australian prime minister, Scott Morrison said: “not just as a father but as prime minister, I am angry too at the calculating destruction of lives…including those who have abused the shield of faith and religion to hide their crimes…They stand condemned…On behalf of the Australian people…I simply say, I believe you, we believe you, your country believes you”.

    What? Every single time? No matter what the strength of evidence?

    Obviously, there have been countless cases of clerical child abuse in Australia that are proven, egregious, shameful and deserving of the kind of abuse that came Cardinal Pell’s way today. But because many victims weren’t believed in the past, because many clerical abusers got away with criminal offences, it isn’t to say that everyone who alleges abuse must be believed, any more than the fact that every woman who alleges rape should be believed, simply because many women have been badly served by the criminal justice system.
    “The history of the 20th century is full of examples of countries that set out to redistribute wealth and ended up redistributing poverty.”
    “There’s no point blaming the tragedies of socialism on the flaws or corruption of particular leaders. Any system which allows some people to exercise unbridled power over others is an open invitation to abuse, whether that system is called slavery or socialism or something else.”—Thomas Sowell

  7. #82
    CC Grandmaster Desmond's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    I agree. It's hardly beyond reasonable doubt when there was only one complainant who was uncorroborated and when the alleged acts were decades ago. But between the first trial and the second, the Royal Commission and ScoMo had weighed in about Catholic sexual abuse, replacing presumption of innocence with presumption of guilt. The jury members were most likely influenced by this mentality. E.g.

    Why I find the George Pell verdict hard to believe
    Melanie McDonagh, Spectator, 26 February 2019

    But if the implausibilities in the prosecution case have not changed, what has is the force of the assumption that you are innocent until proven guilty. In cases of child abuse that is no longer a given. After the royal commission into child abuse and the Victoria state’s own parliamentary inquiry, the shared assumption in Australia – and here – seems to be that anyone who alleges abuse must be believed, unless, perhaps, the evidence to the contrary is overwhelming. Indeed we have this on good authority. In his parliamentary apology to victims of child sex abuse (two weeks before the rerun of the Pell trial), the Australian prime minister, Scott Morrison said: “not just as a father but as prime minister, I am angry too at the calculating destruction of lives…including those who have abused the shield of faith and religion to hide their crimes…They stand condemned…On behalf of the Australian people…I simply say, I believe you, we believe you, your country believes you”.

    What? Every single time? No matter what the strength of evidence?

    Obviously, there have been countless cases of clerical child abuse in Australia that are proven, egregious, shameful and deserving of the kind of abuse that came Cardinal Pell’s way today. But because many victims weren’t believed in the past, because many clerical abusers got away with criminal offences, it isn’t to say that everyone who alleges abuse must be believed, any more than the fact that every woman who alleges rape should be believed, simply because many women have been badly served by the criminal justice system.
    Meanwhile in reality, the royal commission findings as they pertain to Pell are redacted, until the end of Pell's lavish appeal process.

    Which from Pell's perpsective is a good thing too, since so many crimes were committed when he was in a position to stop them. But it wasn't of much interest to him. I wonder if there is anyone in Autralia with more child sexual abuse crimes lain before their feet.
    So what's your excuse? To run like the devil's chasing you.

    See you in another life, brotha.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham View Post
    If Pell's appeal succeeds it could still go to the High Court which has overturned acquittals on appeal in other cases:

    https://www.theguardian.com/australi...ins-his-appeal

    (I try to avoid posting links to the Guardian recklessly but a legal source says this article is generally good. Graphic content warning.)
    This link says all we need to know about the 1964 Shore School 2nd. Speaker (aka David Marr). Notwithstanding his confident assurances about what the Canberra judges might do in the matter of John Tyrell, the record can now show that the judges dismissed it on the documents. I suspect it also says all we need to know about The Guardian. Of course I'd be grateful if anyone can show me where this matter was reported by either The Guardian or Their ABC.

  9. #84
    CC Grandmaster Desmond's Avatar
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    speaking of The Guardian...

    Cardinal George Pell: purported letter from prison sparks investigation

    Victorian justice department says prisoners are not allowed to post on social media or ask others to post on their behalf

    Authorities are investigating whether a letter circulating online, apparently written by disgraced Cardinal George Pell to supporters breaks prison rules.

    The letter, dated 1 August, was posted on Twitter by an account called “Cardinal George Pell Supporters” on Friday night.

    A Victorian Department of Justice spokeswoman on Saturday said prisoners are not allowed to post on social media or use the internet. They are also not allowed to ask others to post on their behalf.

    “[The department] will thoroughly investigate this social media activity,” the spokeswoman said. “Any prisoner found to be contravening prison regulations faces disciplinary action.” ...
    So what's your excuse? To run like the devil's chasing you.

    See you in another life, brotha.

  10. #85
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by idledim View Post
    Notwithstanding his confident assurances about what the Canberra judges might do in the matter of John Tyrell, the record can now show that the judges dismissed it on the documents.
    Yes, they found it "does not give rise to any question of general principle suitable for the grant of special leave to appeal".

    The attempted basis for the appeal against the appeal was whether the appeal court should have watched a video of the complainant testifying before they made their decision.
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  11. #86
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    The interesting point to me is that Tyrell was in jail for twelve months (April 2018 - March 2019) before the VCA acquitted him of all charges. And Pell has now been in jail for six months awaiting the outcome of his appeal (although only two months since the appeal was heard) - which will apparently be soon. Whereas we know that in the case of Pauline Hanson the QCA released her immediately once they decided she was obviously innocent. In all cases, the prisoners were convicted by a jury. So it would seem that the different outcomes are either a result of where the trial takes place, or a result of the more serious crimes that Pell and Tyrell were originally convicted of.
    Last edited by Patrick Byrom; 11-08-2019 at 02:55 PM. Reason: Clarification.

  12. #87
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Appeal dismissed 2-1.
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  13. #88
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    Pell's appeal has been dismissed.

    EDIT: I see Kevin beat me by a microsecond, so I'm adding the live streaming from the Guardian.

  14. #89
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    Of the three issues that Pell appealed on, the Court was split 2-1 only on the reasonableness of the verdict (from the Guardian link above):
    In summary, the appeal of the disgraced cardinal George Pell has been dismissed. On the first ground – that the jury acted unreasonably in coming to a guilty verdict – the judges dismissed the appeal by a margin of two to one. Chief Justice Anne Ferguson and the president of the court of appeal Justice Chris Maxwell found against Pell, while Justice Mark Weinberg agreed with Pell’s lawyers. On the second and third grounds the judges dismissed the appeal unanimously.

  15. #90
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    So now he has 28 days to apply to the High Court for leave to appeal.
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