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  1. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
    There immigration policy is nothing if not tribal. So too Israel. Next question?
    They have a great immigration policy that they implement in accordance with their law! You use the word ''tribal'' as you please. Refusal to take Fakeugees has nothing to do with tribal ways of living. Likewise, plenty of Arabs living in Israel - so sheer nonsense.
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  2. #212
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    They have a great immigration policy that they implement in accordance with their law! You use the word ''tribal'' as you please. Refusal to take Fakeugees has nothing to do with tribal ways of living. Likewise, plenty of Arabs living in Israel - so sheer nonsense.
    I think as usual you have not grasped the full import of the argument. Perhaps if only you had provided a definition of tribal you might at least have one leg to stand on.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  3. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
    I think as usual you have not grasped the full import of the argument. Perhaps if only you had provided a definition of tribal you might at least have one leg to stand on.
    As usual you deviated from the topical definition of 'tribal'' - referring to nations such as Poland or Israel as tribal is nonsense as it has nothing to do with the meaning of ''tribe''. On the other hand, Indigenous Autralians at the time of colonization were clearly living in a tribal society. Or is any country that tries to kick out fakeugees tribal?
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  4. #214
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    As usual you deviated from the topical definition of 'tribal'' - referring to nations such as Poland or Israel as tribal is nonsense as it has nothing to do with the meaning of ''tribe''. On the other hand, Indigenous Autralians at the time of colonization were clearly living in a tribal society. Or is any country that tries to kick out fakeugees tribal?
    As usual you fail to appreciate that you are using the word tribal as a colonisalist swearword and refusing the define your usage. Historically the word tribal was used by Europeans to define non-European societies without must self-reflection. Reminds me of someone.

    One of the key parts of tribal societies is that the notion of membership is tied to the shared descent and more extremist nationalism shares this since one of their key policies is about protecting some cultural identity which ultimately stems from shared descent. The examples I provided of contemporary Poland and Israel were not exhaustive and there are minority parties in Australia is is also driven by the same idea, like One Nation.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  5. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
    As usual you fail to appreciate that you are using the word tribal as a colonisalist swearword and refusing the define your usage. Historically the word tribal was used by Europeans to define non-European societies without must self-reflection. Reminds me of someone.

    One of the key parts of tribal societies is that the notion of membership is tied to the shared descent and more extremist nationalism shares this since one of their key policies is about protecting some cultural identity which ultimately stems from shared descent. The examples I provided of contemporary Poland and Israel were not exhaustive and there are minority parties in Australia is is also driven by the same idea, like One Nation.
    You are using the word tribal away from its original meaning. I think my meaning has been rather transparent to you from the start...but you tend to refer to it as 'nationalism'' instead..which it is not.
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  6. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    You are using the word tribal away from its original meaning. I think my meaning has been rather transparent to you from the start...but you tend to refer to it as 'nationalism'' instead..which it is not.
    And not wanting fakeugees is not just about nationalism!
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  7. #217
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    And not wanting fakeugees is not just about nationalism!
    My emphasis.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  8. #218
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    Ancient Legends And Myths That Were Later Proven True By Science
    ...
    The Fires of Queensland

    Aboriginal people have a tradition of passing down stories orally, meaning that they are usually never written down. They are often extremely vivid and describe events that were both cataclysmic and colorful in equal measure.

    One such story has been passed down through 230 generations of Gugu Badhun Aboriginal people. It’s a spectacular 7,000-year-old story, one that predates most of the world’s great civilizations.

    A tape recording made in the 1970s documented an elder talking of a huge explosion shaking the land, followed by the reveal of a massive crater. An acrid dust swept through the skies, and if people walked into the haze, they were never seen again. The air was boiling, and all along the rivers and the coast, everything was ablaze.

    A curious research team serendipitously found that Kinrara, a now-extinct but once violent volcano in northeastern Australia, erupted at the time this story was first told. This particular blast would have smothered the region in hot ash, as well as generating huge lava flows that would have burned the very earth in which the Aboriginal ancestors walked.

    Amazingly, the eyewitness account has survived for millennia to this very day.
    ...
    meep meep

  9. #219
    CC Grandmaster Ian Murray's Avatar
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    An interesting article on how Canadian courts deal with Inuit oral history (i.e. legally hearsay)

    Legalizing Oral History: Proving Aboriginal Claims in Canadian Courts

  10. #220
    CC Grandmaster Ian Murray's Avatar
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    The Case Against Civilization
    The New Yorker
    18.9.17

    ...The big news to emerge from recent archeological research concerns the time lag between “sedentism,” or living in settled communities, and the adoption of agriculture. Previous scholarship held that the invention of agriculture made sedentism possible. The evidence shows that this isn’t true: there’s an enormous gap—four thousand years—separating the “two key domestications,” of animals and cereals, from the first agrarian economies based on them....

    Two things, however, are clear. The first is that, for thousands of years, the agricultural revolution was, for most of the people living through it, a disaster. The fossil record shows that life for agriculturalists was harder than it had been for hunter-gatherers. Their bones show evidence of dietary stress: they were shorter, they were sicker, their mortality rates were higher. Living in close proximity to domesticated animals led to diseases that crossed the species barrier, wreaking havoc in the densely settled communities. Scott calls them not towns but “late-Neolithic multispecies resettlement camps.” Who would choose to live in one of those? Jared Diamond called the Neolithic Revolution “the worst mistake in human history.” The startling thing about this claim is that, among historians of the era, it isn’t very controversial.

    The other conclusion we can draw from the evidence, Scott says, is that there is a crucial, direct link between the cultivation of cereal crops and the birth of the first states. It’s not that cereal grains were humankind’s only staples; it’s just that they were the only ones that encouraged the formation of states....The answer will make sense to anyone who has ever filled out a Form 1040: grain, unlike other crops, is easy to tax....

    War, slavery, rule by élites—all were made easier by another new technology of control: writing. “It is virtually impossible to conceive of even the earliest states without a systematic technology of numerical record keeping,” Scott maintains. All the good things we associate with writing—its use for culture and entertainment and communication and collective memory—were some distance in the future. For half a thousand years after its invention, in Mesopotamia, writing was used exclusively for bookkeeping: “the massive effort through a system of notation to make a society, its manpower, and its production legible to its rulers and temple officials, and to extract grain and labor from it.” Early tablets consist of “lists, lists and lists,” Scott says, and the subjects of that record-keeping are, in order of frequency, “barley (as rations and taxes), war captives, male and female slaves.” ...

  11. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Murray View Post
    The Case Against Civilization
    The New Yorker
    18.9.17

    ...The big news to emerge from recent archeological research concerns the time lag between “sedentism,” or living in settled communities, and the adoption of agriculture. Previous scholarship held that the invention of agriculture made sedentism possible. The evidence shows that this isn’t true: there’s an enormous gap—four thousand years—separating the “two key domestications,” of animals and cereals, from the first agrarian economies based on them....

    Two things, however, are clear. The first is that, for thousands of years, the agricultural revolution was, for most of the people living through it, a disaster. The fossil record shows that life for agriculturalists was harder than it had been for hunter-gatherers. Their bones show evidence of dietary stress: they were shorter, they were sicker, their mortality rates were higher. Living in close proximity to domesticated animals led to diseases that crossed the species barrier, wreaking havoc in the densely settled communities. Scott calls them not towns but “late-Neolithic multispecies resettlement camps.” Who would choose to live in one of those? Jared Diamond called the Neolithic Revolution “the worst mistake in human history.” The startling thing about this claim is that, among historians of the era, it isn’t very controversial.

    The other conclusion we can draw from the evidence, Scott says, is that there is a crucial, direct link between the cultivation of cereal crops and the birth of the first states. It’s not that cereal grains were humankind’s only staples; it’s just that they were the only ones that encouraged the formation of states....The answer will make sense to anyone who has ever filled out a Form 1040: grain, unlike other crops, is easy to tax....

    War, slavery, rule by élites—all were made easier by another new technology of control: writing. “It is virtually impossible to conceive of even the earliest states without a systematic technology of numerical record keeping,” Scott maintains. All the good things we associate with writing—its use for culture and entertainment and communication and collective memory—were some distance in the future. For half a thousand years after its invention, in Mesopotamia, writing was used exclusively for bookkeeping: “the massive effort through a system of notation to make a society, its manpower, and its production legible to its rulers and temple officials, and to extract grain and labor from it.” Early tablets consist of “lists, lists and lists,” Scott says, and the subjects of that record-keeping are, in order of frequency, “barley (as rations and taxes), war captives, male and female slaves.” ...
    So is it a reason to conclude that societies should not develop?
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  12. #222
    CC Grandmaster Ian Murray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    So is it a reason to conclude that societies should not develop?
    Too late now, but if humankind's development path was the cause of so much human misery then clearly a better path would have been preferable.

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