Page 3 of 24 FirstFirst 1234513 ... LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 350
  1. #31
    CC Grandmaster
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    12,782
    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
    I note that if you read that report you would see that the statistics are based on data collected from the criminal justice system. So indigenous people are up to 20 times more likely to "be charged with" assault not necessarily "commit" assault. It is also worth noting that this does not control for socio-economic factors and so that number would most certainly be much lower if you controlled for that contributing factor. Additionally the report also finds that the the assaults by indigenous people are biased towards more minor assaults and less sexual assaults compared the criminal population at large. So while the incidents might by higher the impact on their victims may be lower.

    Just some food for though before you abuse statistics again.
    It is actually you are who are ''abusing statistics'' by trying to analyse it based on your assumptions . Anyway, In this case do you have statistical data that the ''socio-economic factors'' that impact the high crime rate in the Indigenous communities occur due to external factors (e.g. government policies) rather than due people within the communities making poor life-style choices?
    Interested in Chess Lessons?
    Email webbaron!@gmail.com for more Info!

  2. #32
    CC Grandmaster ER's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Melbourne - Australia
    Posts
    11,719
    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    It is actually you are who are ''abusing statistics'' by trying to analyse it based on your assumptions . Anyway, In this case do you have statistical data that the ''socio-economic factors'' that impact the high crime rate in the Indigenous communities occur due to external factors (e.g. government policies) rather than due people within the communities making poor life-style choices?
    Michael, I think that the best advice in dealing with mother superior is "don't feed the troll"!
    (particularly a troll who has the power to delete posts that prove beyond any reasonable doubt his stupidity)!

    The harsh reality of life is that ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Australian Institute of criminology
    Indigenous Australians are very much over-represented in Australian prison populations,
    with imprisonment rates that are around 12 times those of the rest of the Australian population.
    Despite making up less than three per cent of the overall Australian population,
    Indigenous people make up 40 per cent of those imprisoned for assault offences.
    Rates of over-representation*are even higher in juvenile detention,
    with a 10-17 year old Indigenous person being around 24 times more likely
    to be in detention than a non-Indigenous person of the same age.
    A citizen doesn't end up in prison for skipping classes at school or poking their tongues out to elderly ladies.
    It's a huge social problem that it needs effective ways to be dealt with!
    Last edited by ER; 01-06-2017 at 07:02 PM.
    ACF 3118316
    FIDE 3201457

  3. #33
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    The multiverse
    Posts
    21,570
    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    It is actually you are who are ''abusing statistics'' by trying to analyse it based on your assumptions .
    Does the smilie face mean you are joking? If socio economic factors are known to correlate with offending then it should be controlled for if you are going to make statements like "indigenous people are x times more likely to offend". As that number is lower when making an apples for apples comparison. Additionally it is not clear that committing an assault is the same as charged with assault. So if you are getting your statistics from legal records you should at least state correctly the thing you are counting.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  4. #34
    CC Grandmaster
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    12,782
    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
    Does the smilie face mean you are joking? If socio economic factors are known to correlate with offending then it should be controlled for if you are going to make statements like "indigenous people are x times more likely to offend". As that number is lower when making an apples for apples comparison. Additionally it is not clear that committing an assault is the same as charged with assault. So if you are getting your statistics from legal records you should at least state correctly the thing you are counting.
    So can you please set an example in providing ''accurate statistics'' and provide me with any valid source that states that Indigenous communities have a crime rate that is lower/same than other communities...or anything to say about the Sudanese refugee community? Smiley face means, I am entertained by you denying the obvious
    Interested in Chess Lessons?
    Email webbaron!@gmail.com for more Info!

  5. #35
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Atlanta, GA (formerly Brisbane, and before that Wellington, NZ)
    Posts
    19,508
    Quote Originally Posted by Elliott Renzies View Post
    A citizen doesn't end up in prison for skipping classes at school or poking their tongues out to elderly ladies.
    It's a huge social problem that it needs effective ways to be dealt with!
    Indeed so. And the first is to real that there is a problem in the first place. The Left usually wants to blame "society" for minority crimes, not those who choose to commit crimes. And of course, when it comes to blaming society, they never blame a welfare system that decouples work from reward and actually financially punishes people who marry or get a job.
    “The destructive capacity of the individual, however vicious, is small; of the state, however well-intentioned, almost limitless. Expand the state and that destructive capacity necessarily expands, too, pari passu.”—Paul Johnson, Modern Times, 1983.

  6. #36
    CC Grandmaster
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    4,873
    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    Indeed so. And the first is to real that there is a problem in the first place. The Left usually wants to blame "society" for minority crimes, not those who choose to commit crimes. And of course, when it comes to blaming society, they never blame a welfare system that decouples work from reward and actually financially punishes people who marry or get a job.
    But clearly society is a factor. For example, the fact that Australia has had no mass shootings in 20 years isn't because people have become suddenly better; it's because of the elimination of the weapons that contributed to those shootings. Attempting to eliminate mass shootings by ignoring this factor is doomed to failure, as the US has shown.

    Also, if the welfare system contributes to crime, then the crime rate should be much greater in Australia than in the US. It isn't, of course, because a generous welfare system prevents crime.

  7. #37
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    The multiverse
    Posts
    21,570
    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    So can you please set an example in providing ''accurate statistics'' and provide me with any valid source that states that Indigenous communities have a crime rate that is lower/same than other communities...or anything to say about the Sudanese refugee community? Smiley face means, I am entertained by you denying the obvious
    The person making the claim should supply the evidence. You and Elliott made various claims and when asked for evidence you first claimed it was abundant without supplying any. You then supplied something faulty which did not evince your claim at all but a weaker claim. What you still need to do is to substantiate your claim or to recant it and make one for which you can supply some evidence for. That is how the onus of proof works.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  8. #38
    CC Grandmaster
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    4,873
    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    So can you please set an example in providing ''accurate statistics'' and provide me with any valid source that states that Indigenous communities have a crime rate that is lower/same than other communities...or anything to say about the Sudanese refugee community? Smiley face means, I am entertained by you denying the obvious
    But that is not what Rincewind is saying. He's making the point that the indigenous crime rate could be a product of several factors. If you're comparing this rate with the rate in the general population, these factors should be accounted for.

    I thought you taught some type of business subject? Doesn't that include statistical analysis?

  9. #39
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Atlanta, GA (formerly Brisbane, and before that Wellington, NZ)
    Posts
    19,508
    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    It isn't, of course, because a generous welfare system prevents crime.
    Then those who most benefit from its generosity should be least represented among those who commit crimes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom to MichaelBaron
    But that is not what Rincewind is saying. He's making the point that the indigenous crime rate could be a product of several factors.
    And you both downplay the main factor—even the elephant in the room—that the crime rate is the result of free choices to commit crime.

    Much of this is committed against the indigenous, so the white leftists are actually harming the indigenous with their soft-on-crime excuse mongering.
    Last edited by Capablanca-Fan; 02-06-2017 at 02:20 AM.
    “The destructive capacity of the individual, however vicious, is small; of the state, however well-intentioned, almost limitless. Expand the state and that destructive capacity necessarily expands, too, pari passu.”—Paul Johnson, Modern Times, 1983.

  10. #40
    CC Grandmaster
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    4,873
    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    Then those who most benefit from its generosity should be least represented among those who commit crimes.
    An argument that makes no sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    And you both downplay the main factor—even the elephant in the room—that the crime rate is the result of free choices to commit crime. Much of this is committed against the indigenous, so the white leftists are actually harming the indigenous with their soft-on-crime excuse mongering.
    And those 'free choices' are partially the product of society - a good example is the effect of lead on black crime in the US. And who is being "soft" on crime - you keep making this claim, but you have refused to justify it?

  11. #41
    CC Grandmaster
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    12,782
    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    An argument that makes no sense.

    And those 'free choices' are partially the product of society - a good example is the effect of lead on black crime in the US. And who is being "soft" on crime - you keep making this claim, but you have refused to justify it?
    So lets move on to the ''solutions'' department, shall we? How do we solve those problems? By giving the Indigenous more money? by bowing low every time we see them? Or may be since they are such ''little angels'' we say there are no problems? I arrived in Australia in 1991 ever since...there have been talk about ''unfair past'' of the Indigenous people...now 26 years gone by - still there is drinking , drugs, high crime rate etc. What shall we do? What can be done with people who refuse to learn how to swim but expect everyone to support their floating across the ocean.
    Interested in Chess Lessons?
    Email webbaron!@gmail.com for more Info!

  12. #42
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Atlanta, GA (formerly Brisbane, and before that Wellington, NZ)
    Posts
    19,508
    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    So lets move on to the ''solutions'' department, shall we? How do we solve those problems? By giving the Indigenous more money? by bowing low every time we see them? Or may be since they are such ''little angels'' we say there are no problems? I arrived in Australia in 1991 ever since...there have been talk about ''unfair past'' of the Indigenous people...now 26 years gone by - still there is drinking , drugs, high crime rate etc. What shall we do? What can be done with people who refuse to learn how to swim but expect everyone to support their floating across the ocean.
    Yes, one would think that even the left would realize that throwing more and more money (of other people) has not solved anything, and tried something else. How about policies that actually reward work over non-work?
    “The destructive capacity of the individual, however vicious, is small; of the state, however well-intentioned, almost limitless. Expand the state and that destructive capacity necessarily expands, too, pari passu.”—Paul Johnson, Modern Times, 1983.

  13. #43
    CC Grandmaster
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    4,873
    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    So lets move on to the ''solutions'' department, shall we? How do we solve those problems? By giving the Indigenous more money? by bowing low every time we see them? Or may be since they are such ''little angels'' we say there are no problems? I arrived in Australia in 1991 ever since...there have been talk about ''unfair past'' of the Indigenous people...now 26 years gone by - still there is drinking , drugs, high crime rate etc. What shall we do? What can be done with people who refuse to learn how to swim but expect everyone to support their floating across the ocean.
    Nobody here is saying that there isn't a problem. But the current methods are working - crime, including indigenous crime, is on the decrease.

  14. #44
    CC Grandmaster
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    4,873
    If people don't think Australia's current policies are working, it will simplify the discussion enormously if they can provide examples of where their alternatives have been shown to be successful. One practical success is worth a thousand theoretical arguments!

  15. #45
    CC Grandmaster
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    12,782
    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    Nobody here is saying that there isn't a problem. But the current methods are working - crime, including indigenous crime, is on the decrease.
    Indigenous crime on the decrease? How significant is the decrease? Do you have statistical data to back it up? Likewise, I would love to see if unemployment figures for the Indigenous (despite the positive discrimination that they benefit from when applying for government jobs etc.) are similar to the ones for Non-Indigenous Australians?
    Interested in Chess Lessons?
    Email webbaron!@gmail.com for more Info!

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Drug policing and injecting rooms
    By MichaelBaron in forum Politics
    Replies: 34
    Last Post: 16-04-2018, 01:54 PM
  2. NT/Indigenous chess (sf ACF comments)
    By Kevin Bonham in forum Australian Chess
    Replies: 24
    Last Post: 18-07-2015, 11:00 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •