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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Murray View Post
    They were probably on strike. Rather common then.
    Or students.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    Indeed so. That's one reason that there were hardly any anti-Obama protests; the people who hated his policies had jobs.
    The fact that Obama's approval rating was almost double Trump's might also have been a factor.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    Another person who doesn't like carbon dioxide! And can you name these chess players? I know a number of non-working chess players too, but they're all on disability pensions.
    I can name (aka name and shame) and I believe concession cards that they produced when claiming concession to enter tournaments, join club etc is not disability concession card.
    Btw, how some people can do some jobs and get on disability pensions while other are truly disabled but yet manage to get jobs of all kind is one more issue...
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  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    I can name (aka name and shame) and I believe concession cards that they produced when claiming concession to enter tournaments, join club etc is not disability concession card.
    Btw, how some people can do some jobs and get on disability pensions while other are truly disabled but yet manage to get jobs of all kind is one more issue...
    So you don't actually know if they are unemployed or on the disability pension? If they have been non-working for the length of time you've implied, they are almost certainly pensioners - the number of long-term unemployed is relatively small. Of course, if you name them, then we may be able to find out!

    Whether a disabled person can work depends a lot on their disability and their skills. Stephen Hawking can still do theoretical physics in his head, even though he is severely disabled, but he would be incapable of manual labour.

  5. #65
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    Northern Territory Intervention ring any bells?
    Not really.

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    You still haven't explained what is wrong with fizzy drinks - why are they on the card but non-fizzy ones are not?
    Nothing wrong with them. That's why I oppose the sin taxes and maximum sizes that your fellow leftists love. I just don't want to pay for other people's!

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    The trial found that the card caused a lot of problems, without any clear benefits. It was worse than the current system.
    That's hard to believe, given how bad the current system is. Centrelink in general is crappy, but you disagreed with the old LDP suggestion that would both remove harrassment, reduct bureaucracy, and leave just about everyone better off if they had even a half-time job at minimum wage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    It will take time, not effort.
    Then let them forego tobacco, alcohol, and fizzy.
    “The destructive capacity of the individual, however vicious, is small; of the state, however well-intentioned, almost limitless. Expand the state and that destructive capacity necessarily expands, too, pari passu.”—Paul Johnson, Modern Times, 1983.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    Not really.
    Maybe this will refresh your memory - Kevin is responding to one of your posts supporting the intervention:
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham View Post
    Oh no it wasn't. For instance, the intervention included substantial restrictions on the purchase of alcohol that are not applied elsewhere. It is not the proper function of libertarian government to illiberally restrict the alcohol purchases of one person in a community on the grounds that others in the same community have misbehaved while drunk. "protect life and property" does not justify unlimited intrusion into a person's life. If it did, excessive airport screening would be a libertarian policy and so would imprisoning suspected communists and terrorists without trial.
    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    Nothing wrong with them. That's why I oppose the sin taxes and maximum sizes that your fellow leftists love. I just don't want to pay for other people's!
    Do you pay taxes in Australia? And you still haven't explained why fizzy drinks are on the card but not non-fizzy ones? I assume it's because you've realised how silly this would actually look.

    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    That's hard to believe, given how bad the current system is. Centrelink in general is crappy, but you disagreed with the old LDP suggestion that would both remove harrassment, reduct bureaucracy, and leave just about everyone better off if they had even a half-time job at minimum wage.
    But the card wouldn't replace Centrelink. And you should read the report on the trial.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    So you don't actually know if they are unemployed or on the disability pension? If they have been non-working for the length of time you've implied, they are almost certainly pensioners - the number of long-term unemployed is relatively small. Of course, if you name them, then we may be able to find out!

    Whether a disabled person can work depends a lot on their disability and their skills. Stephen Hawking can still do theoretical physics in his head, even though he is severely disabled, but he would be incapable of manual labour.
    1) I know they are unemployed! ..just respecting their privacy
    2) Out of those who are ''disabled'' I am pretty sure some of them can do some work at least part-time if they can walk around chess club without difficulty move pieces etc...imay be they are diagnosed with ''chessafrenia'' etc..or too ''stressed'' if have to go to work so work is bad for their mental health...
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  8. #68
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    They should certainly get smaller pension that those who have been employed their entire lives as opposed to current system where those with savings are not entitled to the pesion.
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  9. #69
    CC Grandmaster road runner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    Everyone is entitled to free Child birth.
    Allow me to counter with a quote from someone you might listen to:
    "I do not understand why people should get things they did nothing to deserve." - Michael Baron.

    Re New Start...what if they are not searching for jobs...shall I still pay for their fizzy drinks...
    As already demonstrated, the amount of money they receive is a pittance, and if they chose to spend it on something in aisle 8 of the supermarket instead of your preferred aisle, then it's none of your business. It's called living in a free country.

    The reason I keep giving examples of chess players...cause they are examples of unemployed I meet for years ...and their ''status-quo'' does not change.
    Again, let me draw your attention to some actual statistics (sorry again if that hurts your argument). Less than a quarter (23%) of unemployed people are long-term unemployed (>52 weeks). We can also see that of those, ~12% (table 2) are there for >2 years. Not sure of those ~12% how many are there for years or decades as you imply, but we can safely assume it is well south of that number. So is it worth removing a safety net from every Australian to assay appeasement of your envy? OK, so maybe you know a couple of them. That hardly makes it a national crisis now does it.

    Also as can be seen on table 3 from the same link, the job search takes longer as people get older, increasing in every bracket up to 55-64 years old. As you'd expect. The country is not overrun with kids making careers out of the dole. They want to work.
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  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by road runner View Post
    Allow me to counter with a quote from someone you might listen to:
    "I do not understand why people should get things they did nothing to deserve." - Michael Baron.

    As already demonstrated, the amount of money they receive is a pittance, and if they chose to spend it on something in aisle 8 of the supermarket instead of your preferred aisle, then it's none of your business. It's called living in a free country.

    Again, let me draw your attention to some actual statistics (sorry again if that hurts your argument). Less than a quarter (23%) of unemployed people are long-term unemployed (>52 weeks). We can also see that of those, ~12% (table 2) are there for >2 years. Not sure of those ~12% how many are there for years or decades as you imply, but we can safely assume it is well south of that number. So is it worth removing a safety net from every Australian to assay appeasement of your envy? OK, so maybe you know a couple of them. That hardly makes it a national crisis now does it.

    Also as can be seen on table 3 from the same link, the job search takes longer as people get older, increasing in every bracket up to 55-64 years old. As you'd expect. The country is not overrun with kids making careers out of the dole. They want to work.
    1) ChildBirth is free for the sake of the child, not the mother!
    2) some are cheating the systems by changing from dole to austudy and back...and the issue of the so called ''disabled'' has also came up. Re chess players who do not work - just check how many of the entries from chess players who are 25-65 years of age are concession ones .
    3) It gets harder but it does not mean they can not. Anyone can get a job if they are desperate enough and prepared to fight hard for those jobs. At Melbourne chess club they were looking for someone to clean the club. As a result, someone who is already employed full time is doing it for a bit of extra cash + to help out the club. Where where the unemployed club members why would not they run forward screaming ''let me do it - I need to earn the money''!
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  11. #71
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    May be should do a social experiment, identify a person who is unemployed (e.g. in Chess club) and ask him to clean my house and get paid . He will also be asked to declear his income so some money is deducted from his benefits and he earns the pay rather than simply collects the money for nothing. Lets see what the reply will be
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  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elliott Renzies View Post
    we' re talking clothing here, not cereals!
    No, you're going to have to inspect every line of every invoice to enforce this. You cannot even just limit it to certain stores. Eg if basic foods are OK but clothes, magazines and DVDs are not, you can't just give them open slather at Big W. They can buy all those things there! No, you'll have to get down in the trenches and read every line of every receipt for every purchase that the Newstarter makes in every fortnight. I wonder what that will cost.

    Also hard to book your next Aegean holidays by paying cash!
    Fairly irrelevant example since you have to provide your personal details for the flights and booking. But you could go to a travel agent and pay cash if you wanted to. That would keep the transaction details out of the hands of your credit card provider, for example.

    That shopping again! I was responding to the Big Bro methods here! They indeed saved us 100s of millions NOT snooping inside shopping bags.
    It's all part of the consumer profile. The shops know a lot about your spending habits and they make changes in their stores to suit. There was one famous example where a middle-aged couple started to get ads for nappies and baby products, as though the advertiser (probably google) knew that the woman was pregnant. She wasn't. Turned out that their teenage daughter was, and the advertiser knew it from various behaviours that the teenager had exhibited, using the parents' credit card/intenet connection etc, before even the parents knew! That's big data analytics for you. Their customers' profile and the rewards cards is one way they do it. This information is very valuable to companies and they pay a lot to harvest, mine, and exploit their data. If you use a credit card each time you shop, they know it's the same person and what you purchased down to the last bean. Just the simple acts of withdrawing a bit of cash before you go into the supermarket and not using the rewards cards (which probably are counterproductive anyway - ever made additional purchases to chase points?) actually makes a significant difference.

    Also, cashless centrelink cards will be an automatic proof of purchasing cornflakes as well as the latest fashion Versace shirts!
    Not really, when you can buy both from the same places (well maybe not versace, but certainly something of the kind).
    Last edited by road runner; 30-05-2017 at 03:36 PM.
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  13. #73
    CC Grandmaster road runner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    They should certainly get smaller pension that those who have been employed their entire lives as opposed to current system where those with savings are not entitled to the pesion.
    Quite a bizarre outlook, one not shared by many I guess.

    So tell me, does someone who works only part time also only retire part time and get a part time pension Michael?
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  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by road runner View Post
    Quite a bizarre outlook, one not shared by many I guess.

    So tell me, does someone who works only part time also only retire part time and get a part time pension Michael?
    He should get smaller pension than a person who worked full time. Working part time was his choice.
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  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Murray View Post
    What happens when unemployed people reach pension age?
    They get a pay rise! since Newstart is less than the pension. Quite a lot less actually ($536/fortnight compared to $808/fortnight. I never understood why an aged pensioner should need more to live on with all the discounts they get, compared to a Newstarter who needs to be expending money looking for work.
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