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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elliott Renzies View Post
    Michael please read my lips! Byron Jim was a human rights fighter including being an advocate for aboriginal land rights and all that jazz.

    However, when it came to his own interests being "threatened" by the black fellas he changed his tune.

    Moral of the story. Byron Jim was a hypocrite no matter how much he did or didn't litter the streets during his rallying for freedom and equality!

    There are plenty like him around!
    But it would be good see those ''fellas'' nocking on the doors of their advocates asking to let them in .
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  2. #47
    CC Grandmaster road runner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elliott Renzies View Post
    Everything is being thought of. People who are in need of clothing will be given enough money to buy clothing for job interviews.
    Of course they have to provide evidence that the money was spent on clothing and not on some sort of naughty purpose!
    You want to put in a level of bureaucracy to go through the unemployed's receipts? Sounds counterproductive.

    We are all going to live in a cashless society sooner or later so don't worry about it.
    (leave the worrying for money launderers and under the mattress stashers!)
    Cashless would definitely be good for reducing organised crime, no doubt about it.

    I do worry about my privacy though, that is why I don't sign up for most of the store rewards programs etc.
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  3. #48
    CC Grandmaster road runner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    Next is...not giving people money. The core problem I have with 'socialism'' is - I do not understand why people should get things they did nothing to deserve.
    Were you born in a hospital? Did someone wrap you in a blanket? Was there electricity and running water to facilitate your birth? Was your mother afforded pain killers and other medicine? I presume you had not previously managed to save enough money to cover the various costs of your own birth. Of course during the course of your life one would hope that you contribute enough to make your life a net contribution to society. Some present company excluded, of course.

    Is it any different for the unemployed? Sure they need some help to, you know, survive, eat, pay rent, buy clothes, shock horror maybe have a fizzy drink *gasp*, but most go on to move on from there and get back to paying taxes again. And then they can contribute to supporting the next batch. Sure some don't, a very small percentage, but do you know what, I don't envy them.
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  4. #49
    CC Grandmaster ER's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by road runner View Post
    You want to put in a level of bureaucracy to go through the unemployed's receipts? Sounds counterproductive.
    I don't "want" to.

    Bureaucracy is already there!

    They are checking on other claims as well (no. of job interviews, or applications for centrelink loans / payments in advance, or medical certificates etc come to mind).

    It won't really cause a major bureaucratic clog up to check a few receipts for purchases of the kind.
    ...

    I do worry about my privacy though, that is why I don't sign up for most of the store rewards programs etc.
    A bit too late for that for me at least! During the last decade the amount of my online transactions has increased drastically.

    That has provided whatever kind of Big Bro is there with sufficient information about my financial movements.

    Only a few hours ago I was making a hotel booking. Minutes after it was completed I received at least five e-mails informing me about
    services such as car rentals, restaurants, discounted products in the area around my accommodation. They do know.

    Coming to more serious matters, particularly with the terrorist threat becoming a reality, as well as exposing social security cheats etc
    I don't really mind a bit of privacy violation. It has already saved us 100s of millions of $.
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  5. #50
    CC Grandmaster road runner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elliott Renzies View Post
    I don't "want" to.

    Bureaucracy is already there!

    They are checking on other claims as well (no. of job interviews, or applications for centrelink loans / payments in advance, or medical certificates etc come to mind).

    It won't really cause a major bureaucratic clog up to check a few receipts for purchases of the kind.
    A few? With hundreds of thousands on the unemployed list there'd be millions of receipts a week. Have to make sure they're buying weetbix and not Sunkist, that's gonna take time. And how about those on Aged pension, are they to be denied "luxury" foods too?

    A bit too late for that for me at least! During the last decade the amount of my online transactions has increased drastically.

    That has provided whatever kind of Big Bro is there with sufficient information about my financial movements.

    Only a few hours ago I was making a hotel booking. Minutes after it was completed I received at least five e-mails informing me about
    services such as car rentals, restaurants, discounted products in the area around my accommodation. They do know.
    Hard to avoid leaving your footprints at all but you can minimise it. Use cash instead of card, don't sign up for loyalty programs makes a pretty bug difference.

    Coming to more serious matters, particularly with the terrorist threat becoming a reality, as well as exposing social security cheats etc
    I don't really mind a bit of privacy violation. It has already saved us 100s of millions of $.
    Doesn't have to be an either/or. Re terrorism, we can require photo ID for sensitive/dangerous items. Spending money isn't cheating on social security. The cheats are those who aren't eligible. You don't find that out by snooping inside their shopping trolley.
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  6. #51
    CC Grandmaster ER's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by road runner View Post
    A few? With hundreds of thousands on the unemployed list there'd be millions of receipts a week. Have to make sure they're buying weetbix and not Sunkist, that's gonna take time. And how about those on Aged pension, are they to be denied "luxury" foods too?
    we' re talking clothing here, not cereals!

    Hard to avoid leaving your footprints at all but you can minimise it. Use cash instead of card, don't sign up for loyalty programs makes a pretty bug difference.
    Also hard to book your next Aegean holidays by paying cash!


    The cheats are those who aren't eligible. You don't find that out by snooping inside their shopping trolley.
    That shopping again! I was responding to the Big Bro methods here! They indeed saved us 100s of millions NOT snooping inside shopping bags.

    Also, cashless centrelink cards will be an automatic proof of purchasing cornflakes as well as the latest fashion Versace shirts!
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  7. #52
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    I think anything that unemployed get should be treated as our ''good will as a society'' rather than ''entitlements''. People keep talking about their rights to things they do not earn. Re discussion above: clothes not to freeze on cold winter day - sure...but other than that...why should we provide extra clothing items?

    Food not to starve - OK. But should they be eating out with our money? Let's treat the money they get as OUR MONEY...and it will put things into perspective.
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  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by road runner View Post
    Were you born in a hospital? Did someone wrap you in a blanket? Was there electricity and running water to facilitate your birth? Was your mother afforded pain killers and other medicine? I presume you had not previously managed to save enough money to cover the various costs of your own birth. Of course during the course of your life one would hope that you contribute enough to make your life a net contribution to society. Some present company excluded, of course.

    Is it any different for the unemployed? Sure they need some help to, you know, survive, eat, pay rent, buy clothes, shock horror maybe have a fizzy drink *gasp*, but most go on to move on from there and get back to paying taxes again. And then they can contribute to supporting the next batch. Sure some don't, a very small percentage, but do you know what, I don't envy them.
    Everyone is entitled to free Child birth. Re New Start...what if they are not searching for jobs...shall I still pay for their fizzy drinks...The reason I keep giving examples of chess players...cause they are examples of unemployed I meet for years ...and their ''status-quo'' does not change.
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  9. #54
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elliott Renzies View Post
    Michael please read my lips! Byron Jim was a human rights fighter including being an advocate for aboriginal land rights and all that jazz.

    However, when it came to his own interests being "threatened" by the black fellas he changed his tune.

    Moral of the story. Byron Jim was a hypocrite no matter how much he did or didn't litter the streets during his rallying for freedom and equality!

    There are plenty like him around!
    Leftist hypocrisy is nothing new. The Pope claims that building walls is unchristian, but the Vatican is surrounded by walls. Many rich US leftists call for unfettered immigration from the safety of gated communities and high fences around their own houses. Leftist politicians call for disarming the population while they have armed bodyguards. They oppose school choice for the masses while they choose the best private schools money can buy for their own kids. Mark Zuckerberg has just called for a minimum income for everyone, but won't send them a cheque from his own billions. Leftists in general whinge about tax havens and tax shelters but are happy to use them to shelter their own wealth from the tax man.

    In general, conservatives are far more generous with their own money (and time, and even blood) than leftists. Leftists are generous only with other people's money.
    Last edited by Capablanca-Fan; 30-05-2017 at 04:12 AM.
    “The destructive capacity of the individual, however vicious, is small; of the state, however well-intentioned, almost limitless. Expand the state and that destructive capacity necessarily expands, too, pari passu.”—Paul Johnson, Modern Times, 1983.

  10. #55
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    I can recall some loud protesters walking along the Burke street and I was work at RMIT at the time and having classes and students were asking me ''Michael, why are these people protesting on week day in the afternoon - do not they have a job to go to? ''
    Indeed so. That's one reason that there were hardly any anti-Obama protests; the people who hated his policies had jobs.
    “The destructive capacity of the individual, however vicious, is small; of the state, however well-intentioned, almost limitless. Expand the state and that destructive capacity necessarily expands, too, pari passu.”—Paul Johnson, Modern Times, 1983.

  11. #56
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    Except that you do support government coercion to protect people from themselves, as I have pointed out before. It's pointless lying about this, when there is so much evidence to the contrary.
    What are you on about now?

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    So non-fizzy drinks are okay, but fizzy drinks will not be supported by the card? What have you got against carbon dioxide? And I can already see the enormous government bureaucracy that will be needed to adjudicate on this stupidity.
    It's a case of what will be supported by the card. ER's proposed food budget was not unreasonable, and wasn't confined to the cheapest cuts of meat, for example.

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    So you agree it doesn't work.
    Don't be silly. It's an improvement on the current system if they have only 20% for fizzy or alcholic drinks and tobacco. The current system doesn't work!

    When will you leftists learn to ask the question, "Compared to what?" You demand perfection for every alternative, when the real issue is comparison with the current system, not comparison with perfection.

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    There'll be no effort required - they just need to buy a leg of lamb with the card, and swap it with a working relative or neighbour for the equivalent amount of fizzy drinks. I would much prefer them to spend their time looking for jobs.
    You would? Amazing. But which is it? No effort needed, but it will take away from the effort of finding a job. Meanwhile, you support Australia's high minimum wage that prohibits them from taking a job that pays twice the dole.
    “The destructive capacity of the individual, however vicious, is small; of the state, however well-intentioned, almost limitless. Expand the state and that destructive capacity necessarily expands, too, pari passu.”—Paul Johnson, Modern Times, 1983.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    What are you on about now?
    Northern Territory Intervention ring any bells?

    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    It's a case of what will be supported by the card. ER's proposed food budget was not unreasonable, and wasn't confined to the cheapest cuts of meat, for example.
    You still haven't explained what is wrong with fizzy drinks - why are they on the card but non-fizzy ones are not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    Don't be silly. It's an improvement on the current system if they have only 20% for fizzy or alcholic drinks and tobacco. The current system doesn't work!
    The trial found that the card caused a lot of problems, without any clear benefits. It was worse than the current system.

    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    You would? Amazing. But which is it? No effort needed, but it will take away from the effort of finding a job. ...
    It will take time, not effort.

  13. #58
    CC Grandmaster Ian Murray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    I think anything that unemployed get should be treated as our ''good will as a society'' rather than ''entitlements''. People keep talking about their rights to things they do not earn. Re discussion above: clothes not to freeze on cold winter day - sure...but other than that...why should we provide extra clothing items?

    Food not to starve - OK. But should they be eating out with our money? Let's treat the money they get as OUR MONEY...and it will put things into perspective.
    What happens when unemployed people reach pension age? Are they not entitled to an age pension, or is that also 'your money' which may or may not be doled out dependent on society's 'good will'?

  14. #59
    CC Grandmaster Ian Murray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    I can recall some loud protesters walking along the Burke street and I was work at RMIT at the time and having classes and students were asking me ''Michael, why are these people protesting on week day in the afternoon - do not they have a job to go to? ''
    They were probably on strike. Rather common then.

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    Everyone is entitled to free Child birth. Re New Start...what if they are not searching for jobs...shall I still pay for their fizzy drinks...The reason I keep giving examples of chess players...cause they are examples of unemployed I meet for years ...and their ''status-quo'' does not change.
    Another person who doesn't like carbon dioxide! And can you name these chess players? I know a number of non-working chess players too, but they're all on disability pensions.

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