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  1. #16
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    Aboriginal lawyer, activist and social commentator Noel Pearson blames leftist welfare policies for “inculcating a sense of victimhood” in those dependent on welfare:

    “These vampire industries have completely colonised Indigenous Australia and constitute the Australian welfare state’s main response to poverty and the problems that arose from welfare dependency … there’s no incentive for players to resolve the social problems that is their market.”
    This is not directed at the overall idea of spending money helping Indigenous Australians; it's directed at the method.
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  2. #17
    CC Grandmaster Desmond's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    It probably belongs more in the ''Budget thread'' ..but just a short remark. re Pension (aka Aged) expenditure). Had a chat with my Dad few days ago: If he and my mum retire now (both are in the late 60's but still working because in my family, people do not retire as long as health allows to continue to work - this is how it has been for generations). - They will not be entitled to age pension as their assets/savings are above certain thresh-hold. Given that my parents are not billionaires, I am sure there are many families/people who are in the same boat. So, I can think of at least one area where money from the unemployed could go...Also, make me realize that those who do nothing for 40 years (e.g. play chess 7 days a week) will get government pension in old age, while those who bother to save for retirement - will not. How fair is that?

    Another area - Assistance for Indigenous Australians - I have already stated my view in several threads so won't comment further...

    Re specifically 18b for unemployed, lets see what could be done with this money...
    I notice that you have not indicated where you got a figure of 15b out of 158b going to "foreigners living in Australia". Did you just make it up?

    I'd be reducing the aged pension by tightening the means testing, not opening it up. But if it benefits your family, I guess you're for that.
    So what's your excuse? To run like the devil's chasing you.

    See you in another life, brotha.

  3. #18
    Premium Member ER's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    ... Also, Age pension comes with free health care that some of the self-funded retirees will not be eligible for. Even if they have medicare, they will still have to pay extras (e.g. scans etc.). Why should parents who worked hard for years have to pay in old age despite all the taxes they paid and some lazy bums who never worked get it free?
    A well know St Kilda "identity" comes to mind.

    She recently got the age pension after a quarter of a century receiving disability social security payments.

    She smokes, drinks and uses a variety of drugs.

    Her disability was mainly owed to illnesses very much related to her life style.

    She always received free health care and enjoyed all sorts of other benefits like rent assistance, discounted public transport etc.

    Given that she spends no money for food (she eats at the local church's free kitchen services providing excellent breakfasts and lunches)
    and clothing, (the op-shop of the said church provides free clothing items and shoes for poor parishioners) she has quite some money left
    for her gambling and other hobbies!

    After all why not? Aged working parents like the ones you referred to, pay enough taxes to support her life style!

    Of course this case is just from a personal experience and does not reflect to the general situation of the less fortunate citizens
    of our society.

    On the other hand "less fortunate citizens" who have made it a profession of exploiting the system in many ways
    are a force to be reckoned with.

    Drug testing, cashless payments, and stricter means of testing are good measures and should be encouraged!
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  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elliott Renzies View Post
    Drug testing, cashless payments, and stricter means of testing are good measures and should be encouraged!
    Absolutely...why not give food vouchers instead?
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  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by road runner View Post
    I notice that you have not indicated where you got a figure of 15b out of 158b going to "foreigners living in Australia". Did you just make it up?

    I'd be reducing the aged pension by tightening the means testing, not opening it up. But if it benefits your family, I guess you're for that.
    I would on the contrary give bigger pension to those who also managed to save more as encouragement of their ability to take care of themselves.
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  6. #21
    CC Grandmaster Desmond's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    I would on the contrary give bigger pension to those who also managed to save more as encouragement of their ability to take care of themselves.
    Right give money to people who don't need it and deny it to those that do. What a brilliant policy. What next, Newstart for employed people only?
    So what's your excuse? To run like the devil's chasing you.

    See you in another life, brotha.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by road runner View Post
    Right give money to people who don't need it and deny it to those that do. What a brilliant policy. What next, Newstart for employed people only?
    Next is...not giving people money. The core problem I have with 'socialism'' is - I do not understand why people should get things they did nothing to deserve.
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  8. #23
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    Next is...not giving people money. The core problem I have with 'socialism'' is - I do not understand why people should get things they did nothing to deserve.
    In that case you should also have a major problem with the concept of inheritance, or with rich people giving away lots of money to their children.
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  9. #24
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    The other thing here is that "socialism" is a straw man. Socialism means government ownership or strong control of private business. A totally different concept to simply allowing for a reasonable welfare safety net, which one can support while generally supporting business freedom.
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  10. #25
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham View Post
    In that case you should also have a major problem with the concept of inheritance, or with rich people giving away lots of money to their children.
    OK, MB's objection is easily refined with the inserted words in italics: “The core problem I have with ‘socialism’ is—I do not understand why people should get things taken by force from other people that they did nothing to deserve.”
    “The history of the 20th century is full of examples of countries that set out to redistribute wealth and ended up redistributing poverty.”
    “There’s no point blaming the tragedies of socialism on the flaws or corruption of particular leaders. Any system which allows some people to exercise unbridled power over others is an open invitation to abuse, whether that system is called slavery or socialism or something else.”—Thomas Sowell

  11. #26
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    Absolutely...why not give food vouchers instead?
    I would rather see that: vouchers for a reasonable range of household items (including the sort of things that ER mentioned in his proposed healthy and decent food budget), but absolutely not for alcoholic drinks, tobacco, fizzy drinks, candy, or gambling. If they want these, let them get some paid work for them; they are not entitled to them as a right with money coerced from taxpayers.

    But look at the leftist opposition to cashless welfare cards, where 20% of welfare money even goes to the person's bank account for discretionary spending and only 80% quarantined into that debit card for essentials.
    Last edited by Capablanca-Fan; 29-05-2017 at 02:48 AM.
    “The history of the 20th century is full of examples of countries that set out to redistribute wealth and ended up redistributing poverty.”
    “There’s no point blaming the tragedies of socialism on the flaws or corruption of particular leaders. Any system which allows some people to exercise unbridled power over others is an open invitation to abuse, whether that system is called slavery or socialism or something else.”—Thomas Sowell

  12. #27
    Premium Member ER's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    I too would call the cops!
    lol, I don't doubt that, but you wouldn't act as a supporter of their cause or partake in "sorry" demonstrations in the first place!
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  13. #28
    CC Grandmaster Desmond's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    Absolutely...why not give food vouchers instead?
    And what if the thing that a person on Newstart most needs this fortnight is a nice pair of shoes and a jacket for a job interview? Food vouchers won't help much.

    For all of certain people's claims of wanting libertarian principles, they sure want to act like big brother when it suits them.
    So what's your excuse? To run like the devil's chasing you.

    See you in another life, brotha.

  14. #29
    Premium Member ER's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by road runner View Post
    And what if the thing that a person on Newstart most needs this fortnight is a nice pair of shoes and a jacket for a job interview? ...
    Everything is being thought of. People who are in need of clothing will be given enough money to buy clothing for job interviews.
    Of course they have to provide evidence that the money was spent on clothing and not on some sort of naughty purpose!
    We are all going to live in a cashless society sooner or later so don't worry about it.
    (leave the worrying for money launderers and under the mattress stashers!)
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    Money is the cause of all evil!
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  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by road runner View Post
    And what if the thing that a person on Newstart most needs this fortnight is a nice pair of shoes and a jacket for a job interview? Food vouchers won't help much.

    For all of certain people's claims of wanting libertarian principles, they sure want to act like big brother when it suits them.
    You can negotiate other items. My point is - not to give money to those who misuse it. Furthermore, if they live off my money - I can act anyway I like. Once they start earning (if they ever plan to) they will have a right to spend own money as they please. While they are spending my money, I can decide how it is to be spent .
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