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  1. #1
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    Welfare spending

    Quote Originally Posted by Elliott Renzies View Post
    not a bad move, it could improve to a ten year freeze though!
    And for now 158.6 billion from that lovely budget is to be spent on welfare...including 15 billion spent on foreigners living in Australia....
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    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    So in 1985, when Israel received almost two billion dollars in economic aid, was that good or bad for Israel? And did Israel need that aid to feed people starving because of its government?
    Link didn't work.
    “The destructive capacity of the individual, however vicious, is small; of the state, however well-intentioned, almost limitless. Expand the state and that destructive capacity necessarily expands, too, pari passu.”—Paul Johnson, Modern Times, 1983.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    Link didn't work.
    It works for me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    And for now 158.6 billion from that lovely budget is to be spent on welfare...including 15 billion spent on foreigners living in Australia....
    lovely budget? welfare? foreigners living in Aus? I was only referring to foreign aid in my previous!
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    CC Grandmaster road runner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    And for now 158.6 billion from that lovely budget is to be spent on welfare...including 15 billion spent on foreigners living in Australia....
    I'm not sure where your 15b figure comes from?

    158b is a lot of money. So where does it go?



    Well the biggest chunk of it goes to the aged. Unemployed are further down the list (and one of the items that isn't fast growing).

    The family assistance piece IMO could be a lot better targeted.
    meep meep

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    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Those are quite startling figures. For all the stupid political banging on about dole-bludgers, "the unemployed and the sick" combined are only 6.6% of the welfare budget.

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    Quote Originally Posted by road runner View Post
    I'm not sure where your 15b figure comes from?

    158b is a lot of money. So where does it go?



    Well the biggest chunk of it goes to the aged. Unemployed are further down the list (and one of the items that isn't fast growing).

    The family assistance piece IMO could be a lot better targeted.
    It probably belongs more in the ''Budget thread'' ..but just a short remark. re Pension (aka Aged) expenditure). Had a chat with my Dad few days ago: If he and my mum retire now (both are in the late 60's but still working because in my family, people do not retire as long as health allows to continue to work - this is how it has been for generations). - They will not be entitled to age pension as their assets/savings are above certain thresh-hold. Given that my parents are not billionaires, I am sure there are many families/people who are in the same boat. So, I can think of at least one area where money from the unemployed could go...Also, make me realize that those who do nothing for 40 years (e.g. play chess 7 days a week) will get government pension in old age, while those who bother to save for retirement - will not. How fair is that?

    Another area - Assistance for Indigenous Australians - I have already stated my view in several threads so won't comment further...

    Re specifically 18b for unemployed, lets see what could be done with this money...
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    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    So, I can think of at least one area where money from the unemployed could go...
    What, to paying old-age pensions to people who clearly do not need them just because they are not billionaires? As a taxpayer I don't see why my tax $ should go on propping up other people's retirement plans. I'd rather save the money and spend it on my own (not that I have any such plans at this stage), which is exactly what they should be doing and from your account are. Far too much pointless and inefficient middle-class welfare already.

    Re specifically 18b for unemployed, lets see what could be done with this money...
    It's not 18b, it's 11b. There you go, I saved you seven billlion dollars already.

    And that's not specifically "the unemployed" but also includes "the sick", presumably meaning those temporarily incapacitated for work.

    Another area - Assistance for Indigenous Australians - I have already stated my view in several threads so won't comment further...
    1.4% of the welfare budget! Pretty cheap rent for occupying their land.
    Last edited by Kevin Bonham; 28-05-2017 at 12:20 PM.

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    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    It probably belongs more in the ''Budget thread'' ..but just a short remark. re Pension (aka Aged) expenditure). Had a chat with my Dad few days ago: If he and my mum retire now (both are in the late 60's but still working because in my family, people do not retire as long as health allows to continue to work - this is how it has been for generations). - They will not be entitled to age pension as their assets/savings are above certain thresh-hold. Given that my parents are not billionaires, I am sure there are many families/people who are in the same boat. So, I can think of at least one area where money from the unemployed could go...Also, make me realize that those who do nothing for 40 years (e.g. play chess 7 days a week) will get government pension in old age, while those who bother to save for retirement - will not. How fair is that?
    A great incentive to fritter away money rather than save.

    Australia's superannuation scheme is quite good though; would be good if most people could support themselves with a lifetime of compulsory dollar-cost-averaged investments so they wouldn't have to depend on the government. The USA system is much worse, the Social Security pyramid scheme pays a pittance. It would be far better if the Social Security taxes could be invested in superannuation accounts as in Australia.

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    Another area - Assistance for Indigenous Australians - I have already stated my view in several threads so won't comment further...
    And as you would probably agree, in reality it is not "assistance" but harm to divorce reward from work, as Noel Pearson has often warned.
    “The destructive capacity of the individual, however vicious, is small; of the state, however well-intentioned, almost limitless. Expand the state and that destructive capacity necessarily expands, too, pari passu.”—Paul Johnson, Modern Times, 1983.

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    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham View Post
    Those are quite startling figures. For all the stupid political banging on about dole-bludgers, "the unemployed and the sick" combined are only 6.6% of the welfare budget.
    Yes, the "political banging on about dole-bludgers" is indeed stupid as long as the same politicians maintain minimum wage laws that won't allow them to work at even twice the amount of the dole.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham View Post
    1.4% of the welfare budget! Pretty cheap rent for occupying their land.
    Are you volunteering to stop occupying "their" land. I no longer do.
    “The destructive capacity of the individual, however vicious, is small; of the state, however well-intentioned, almost limitless. Expand the state and that destructive capacity necessarily expands, too, pari passu.”—Paul Johnson, Modern Times, 1983.

  11. #11
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    Are you volunteering to stop occupying "their" land. I no longer do.
    Which Native American tribe's land are you occupying instead?

    Of course I think restoring land thefts from many generations ago has serious limits but we should at least recognise that the poor average outcomes experienced today by these peoples often flow through from historic oppression.

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    CC Grandmaster ER's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    Are you volunteering to stop occupying "their" land. I no longer do.
    LOL you just reminded me of Jim (I think that was his name)!

    Jim was a filthy rich land owner from Byron.

    Jim was also a champion for human rights. (A genuine one too, he had helped quite a few causes, provided accommodation for some militants, participated in hunger strikes etc)

    Jim got a visit from a committee of Aborigines one day, notifying him that part of his land had some of their sacred trees on it and that they were planning to perform some rituals there.

    Jim called the cops!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elliott Renzies View Post
    LOL you just reminded me of Jim (I think that was his name)!

    Jim was a filthy rich land owner from Byron.

    Jim was also a champion for human rights. (A genuine one too, he had helped quite a few causes, provided accommodation for some militants, participated in hunger strikes etc)

    Jim got a visit from a committee of Aborigines one day, notifying him that part of his land had some of their sacred trees on it and that they were planning to perform some rituals there.

    Jim called the cops!
    I too would call the cops!
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    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham View Post
    Which Native American tribe's land are you occupying instead?
    I think the Creek Confederacy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham View Post
    Of course I think restoring land thefts from many generations ago has serious limits but we should at least recognise that the poor average outcomes experienced today by these peoples often flow through from historic oppression.
    Aboriginal lawyer, activist and social commentator Noel Pearson blames leftist welfare policies for “inculcating a sense of victimhood” in those dependent on welfare:

    “These vampire industries have completely colonised Indigenous Australia and constitute the Australian welfare state’s main response to poverty and the problems that arose from welfare dependency … there’s no incentive for players to resolve the social problems that is their market.”
    “The destructive capacity of the individual, however vicious, is small; of the state, however well-intentioned, almost limitless. Expand the state and that destructive capacity necessarily expands, too, pari passu.”—Paul Johnson, Modern Times, 1983.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    Does to me anyway. Australia's general taxation principle here is that any interest on loans for taxable-income–producing assets is tax deductible. It applies to margin loans on shares. Although the influential financial adviser Noel Whittaker often cautions, "Don't invest just for tax reasons" or WTTE.
    Absolutely. My main point is however, is that the current system simply discourages people to invest when they are near retirement. Also, Age pension comes with free health care that some of the self-funded retirees will not be eligible for. Even if they have medicare, they will still have to pay extras (e.g. scans etc.). Why should parents who worked hard for years have to pay in old age despite all the taxes they paid and some lazy bums who never worked get it free?
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