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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    Of course it is. That's why opponents of burqa bans claim that it is an assault on religious freedom or "Islamophobic".
    A ban on nuns' habits would be an assault on religious freedom and anti-Catholic, yet a nun's habit is not a religious symbol either. Millions of Muslim women have never worn the burqa, and it's not required in the Koran.

    But burqas are not compulsory for women in Iran anyway, as the Australian Government travel advisory notes:
    There are strong Islamic codes of dress and behaviour in Iran. Women are required to wear loose-fitting clothing which covers the arms and legs, a coat and a headscarf. Men should not wear shorts or sleeveless T-shirts.
    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    That's also an important consideration, given that Israelis are banned and other countries warn against travelling to this Mullahcracy.
    Banning Israelis is a serious problem. Although it seems that under the FIDE Constitution it could be decided by the GA that Israel and Iran are in a state of war, which would void the relevant requirement.

  2. #32
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    He would be on stronger ground in arguing that free access would not be given to representatives of all Federations - which seems to be a potential problem.
    And which I suspect was effectively ignored in the case of Tripoli.

  3. #33
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    But burqas are not compulsory for women in Iran anyway, as the Australian Government travel advisory notes:
    There are strong Islamic codes of dress and behaviour in Iran. Women are required to wear loose-fitting clothing which covers the arms and legs, a coat and a headscarf. Men should not wear shorts or sleeveless T-shirts.
    I actually don't know why you brought up the burqa. My wording was "FIDE violating its constitution in forcing women to adopt a religious symbol." Paikidze objected to being forced to wear a head scarf, which as you quote above is part of the "strong Islamic codes of dress and behaviour in Iran."

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    Banning Israelis is a serious problem. Although it seems that under the FIDE Constitution it could be decided by the GA that Israel and Iran are in a state of war, which would void the relevant requirement.
    It is. The Dubai Olympiad in 1986 was also a disgrace, with FIDE allowing the event to be held in a place where one member federation was streng verboten.
    “The destructive capacity of the individual, however vicious, is small; of the state, however well-intentioned, almost limitless. Expand the state and that destructive capacity necessarily expands, too, pari passu.”—Paul Johnson, Modern Times, 1983.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    I actually don't know why you brought up the burqa. My wording was "FIDE violating its constitution in forcing women to adopt a religious symbol." Paikidze objected to being forced to wear a head scarf, which as you quote above is part of the "strong Islamic codes of dress and behaviour in Iran."
    Are you saying the headscarf is a religious symbol? Islam doesn't require it either, but it is part of the dress code in Iran. However presumably any head covering would be satisfactory.

  5. #35
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    Are you saying the headscarf is a religious symbol?
    No, you are! You quoted the following with approval from the Australian government:

    There are strong Islamic codes of dress and behaviour in Iran. Women are required to wear loose-fitting clothing which covers the arms and legs, a coat and a headscarf.

    Are you now saying this is wrong?
    “The destructive capacity of the individual, however vicious, is small; of the state, however well-intentioned, almost limitless. Expand the state and that destructive capacity necessarily expands, too, pari passu.”—Paul Johnson, Modern Times, 1983.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    Are you saying the headscarf is a religious symbol? Islam doesn't require it either, but it is part of the dress code in Iran. However presumably any head covering would be satisfactory.
    So should not participants have a choice of ''dress code''? And should not it be Fide's responsibility to ensure that all of the participants are equally welcome?
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  7. #37
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    No, you are! You quoted the following with approval from the Australian government:

    There are strong Islamic codes of dress and behaviour in Iran. Women are required to wear loose-fitting clothing which covers the arms and legs, a coat and a headscarf.

    Are you now saying this is wrong?
    The existence of a code of dress based on a religious code does not turn those items of apparel into religious symbols. In many Christian churches (for example in Southern Europe) it is required that women wear dresses/skirts rather than pants and ensure the legs and arms are covered. Are such dresses Christian religious symbols?
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  8. #38
    CC Grandmaster ER's Avatar
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    Meanwhile, Paikidze's campaign is picking up!
    this is her face book petition supported amongst others
    by super GM Nigel Short ...

    Attachment 3248
    Last edited by ER; 04-10-2016 at 03:44 PM.
    ACF 3118316
    FIDE 3201457

  9. #39
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Nigel Short is a well-known campaigner for feminist issues.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    No, you are! You quoted the following with approval from the Australian government:
    There are strong Islamic codes of dress and behaviour in Iran. Women are required to wear loose-fitting clothing which covers the arms and legs, a coat and a headscarf.
    Are you now saying this is wrong?
    A coat isn't a religious symbol either (in general). As Rincewind and I have explained, the dress codes are derived from an interpretation of Islam, but that doesn't make an item that satisfies the code religious. To provide another example, an old style Catholic may eat fish fingers on Friday (to avoid eating meat), but that doesn't make a fish finger a Catholic religious symbol.

    The interesting question is why Paikidze objects to wearing a headscarf. A burka, I could understand, but a headscarf is no worse than a tie. And I'm not aware of any religion that forbids the wearing of a headscarf.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    So should not participants have a choice of ''dress code''? And should not it be Fide's responsibility to ensure that all of the participants are equally welcome?
    Most chess tournaments have some restrictions on what people wear. If an event can require your feet to be covered, then requiring your head to be covered is not much different. But I agree with your second statement.

  12. #42
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    So should not participants have a choice of ''dress code''?
    Try playing in the World Champs in thongs and see how far it gets you. FIDE is not that far off formalising a dress code (beyond its existing statement that high standards of dress code are expected of the players in certain events). Many tournaments have dress codes and some require dressing in local garb.

    Mariya Muzychuk's team lodged a complaint against Hou Yifan for wearing jeans!

  13. #43
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    The interesting question is why Paikidze objects to wearing a headscarf.
    She considers that wearing it endorses Iran's oppression of women (including those women who object to wearing such garments). But does that mean that, for instance, if Julie Bishop wears a hijab while visiting Iran, that Julie Bishop endorses Iran's oppression of women? I don't believe so.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham View Post
    She considers that wearing it endorses Iran's oppression of women (including those women who object to wearing such garments). But does that mean that, for instance, if Julie Bishop wears a hijab while visiting Iran, that Julie Bishop endorses Iran's oppression of women? I don't believe so.
    I do not think she has to justify it. The very fact that she has to justify not wearing it suggests that she is not free to make choices
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  15. #45
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    I do not think she has to justify it. The very fact that she has to justify not wearing it suggests that she is not free to make choices
    Of course she doesn't have to justify anything. She's free to say what she likes and people can comment on the validity of her arguments. If their comments are stupid others can then say so.

    I understand her concern even if I don't agree that adopting a local style of dress when required to do so is necessarily endorsing anything. If I was required to wear something that was even arguably derived from a Christian religious code to play in an event in Australia I would certainly boycott it.

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